Leo's toxic rhetoric and an inner conflict

[Oliver Saavedra]

No shame in having an ego who has a character and an opinion.

There's a leo and there's a Leo in all of us, and they're both perfect and have work to do at the same time. 

[wakeup]

3 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Ok @wakeup my sincere apologies.  I'll get off my high chair and stop boring everyone. You're right, carry on.

All good bro, and my apologies if I came off arrogant in anyway. 

[Leo Gura]

My commentary on GF was said in the the context of people calling the cop who killed him a murderer. I don't really agree with that characterization. I see it as an example of excessive force, not murder.

If you don't like my perspective. That's fine. You're entitled to your own perspective. But that does not make my perspective low-consciousness or toxic in this case. Nor does it make me racist or in support of the right-wing attacks on Floyd and a blind defense of the police.

To me, the perspective that the cop was a murderer is a low-consciousness perspective lacking understanding or concern for the cop's perspective and agenda in order to serve the bigger cause of addressing systemic racism. I totally get that, but I am not willing just blindly jump on the anti-cop bandwagon. Cops are not as bad as they are being portrayed to be.

Again, there is a more nuance to this issue than either right-wingers or left-wingers usually acknowledge. I am careful not to smear cops as bad guys because of how dangerous this perspective can get. Corruption of course exists within the police, but the vast majority of cops are doing good work under very challenging circumstances and they need our support even though we also need to push for systemic reform and better training and accountability. I don't agree with popular leftist framing which portrays cops as the enemy. Cops are simply human, working within a flawed system. BLM does go too far sometimes with its rhetoric, which hurts its cause.

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, wakeup said:

Could you tell me how I could have said "irrelevant to the point that I made" in a different way, without coming off as someone looking for a debate?

Sure. "I'm not aware of what you are describing. Could you elaborate?".

The key to meta views is holding points loosely and being aware of the limited nature of each point. Did you read the part about the blind men and the elephant?

3 hours ago, wakeup said:

Have you considered on stepping back a bit on your meta-analysis? And actually addressing exactly what I said? There is a lot of value in that, but I think sometimes you go overboard with it - almost like a mad scientist with his microscope zooming in so much, that he can't see the full thing.

You seem to be assuming I cannot see your point. As you observed, my mind works at a meta level and I can see various points, including the one you offer. 

Yea, your point is true from within that point. 

3 hours ago, wakeup said:

The best teachers that I seen, are the ones that actually learn from the students. They don't act from authority, and the energetic dynamic at play does not make it feel like a student-teacher relationship. Those rare breed happen to be very secure within themselves and do not derive their identity from being a teacher.

This has value in that if a teacher cannot connect and articulate understanding to students, the teacher is ineffective. Yet there are also factors and responsibilities  on the student end. If a student has mental defenses, is unwilling to take personal responsibility , and doesn’t put in the work - it it’s not fair to simply point at a teacher. 

[Jacob Morres]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Cops are simply human, working within a flawed system

they're sorta the byproduct of the system too right? like it's the system's collective responsibility almost for the cop ?

i'm thinking of like pedophiles... who were abused and are repeating their childhood trauma by parents who didn't have proper emotional support living within a society where preventative therapy was too expensive, stigmatized, and not shown the importance of it.. perpetuated by the common voter who doesn't know this and doesn't vote people into office to get this preventative measures & treatment more popular... everything is sort of interconnected? 

while simultaneously though living in a society where this 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Jacob Morres

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, Jacob Morres said:

they're sorta the byproduct of the system too right? like it's the system's collective responsibility almost for the cop ?

It's a two-way street. Individuals create the system, but the system creates the individuals.

Quote

i'm thinking of like pedophiles... who were abused and are repeating their childhood trauma by parents who didn't have proper emotional support

I don't think that's an accurate characterization of pedophiles. They were not necessarily emotionally abused. They might simply only be turned on by young people. There isn't necessarily anything "wrong" with them, any more than you being turned on by whatever you are turned on by.

[Ivan Dimi]

4 hours ago, wakeup said:

For someone who has been a long time lurker, on and off, I 100% agree with OP's post. In fact, I don't think you are in the minority and more people than you think have came to this realization. 

Leo is one of the teachers that does not embody his teachings. People that are conscious enough - can see it from a mile away, just from his energy when watching his videos, in other words, the energy doesn't match the words. The arrogant and careless posts that he makes, is another one of many factors that has already been pointed out.

When it comes to mods, there is a clear conflict of interest at play. Why do you never see them criticize and call Leo out? 

Forestluv has been one of his biggest enablers and defenders - he goes very deep into the meta-analysis and is completely blind when it comes to Leo.

To OP and to others that feel the same - consider that you may have outgrown this teacher. The forum can be enjoyed with interacting other like minded people, but it doesn't mean that you have to follow LEO anymore.

While I will always be grateful for the knowledge that I gained from LEO's older videos - I will not be a blind follower. And you shouldn't be either.

Also, LEO's response to Frank Yang's vid was another giveaway.

Part of the spiritual work is learning how to be authentic and expressing your opinion honestly - no matter the consequences. I hope that one day more people like you will come forward, which in turn will help LEO realize his blindspots and evolve.

I absolutely get your opinion and agree / resonate with almost all points you've listed. But what I don't really undestand is why do you have such extremely high expectations from Leo? Hi provides tons and tons of content, some of it is fucking brilliant almost a touch of genius, some of it is amazing, some of it is good and some of it is pure bullshit. So everybody should critically evaluate any peace of content he publish out there without the expectation that everything what he is saying is the ultimate truth. 

For example do I think he is a brilliant teacher about life purpose, about creativity, mastering your craft, thinking outside the box etc.? Hell yeah. Taking his life purpose course was the best investment I've ever made. So I am gonna be thankful forever... But does hi resonate with me on the spiritual path? To be honest not that much as for example Eckhart Tolle or Alan Watts. The biggest leap in my consciousness was 100% because of Eckhart, but mastering my life / life's purpose is completely Leo's fault

And yes, I see here some cult-like-tendency, but to be honest not because of Leo, but rather because of the expectations of many guys here that he is a saint / guru whatsoever... The other guy was funny too, he is afraid he could be banned from the forum because of saying his opinion ? c'mon man why do you care so much? You register again and hopp you are in again Don't identify with a fucking forum. I don't get the super seriousness too. Yes, Leo is pretty arrogant sometimes... so what? Yes I think too that for some strange reason Trump triggers him a lot and sometime he may act from a lower conciousness being that triggered. But Trump is not his shadow whatsoever, the guy just hates Trump so let it be ?

[Joel3102]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think that's an accurate characterization of pedophiles. They were not necessarily emotionally abused. 

A while back I listened to an interesting interview with a non offending anonymous pedophile. It was quite a fascinating discussion...

https://m.soundcloud.com/politeconversations/episode-21-non-offending-pedophile

[Thestarguitarist14]

@Ivan Dimi You have to understand that some of us come on here looking for like minded people.  So when the leader is so obviously not following his own teachings it is a bit disappointing.  Plus some stage orange/achiever level guys read his post and think that it’s okay to act like that.  So he is also not being a good role model.  He really is speaking for a lot of people on this forum who are too afraid to say anything.

 

Its weird, I really got into actualized during a dark period in my life.  Listening to his videos really got me going into the right direction.  I guess you expect him to walk the walk.  But he does not.  I knew this when in his video after his 30 day solo retreat he talked about watching porn.  I did not listen to his stuff for months and was done with him until he started talking about the nine stages of ego development.  

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Ivan Dimi said:

You register again and hopp you are in again

No you can't. Don't encourage this.

11 minutes ago, Ivan Dimi said:

the guy just hates Trump so let it be ?

I don't hate Trump at all.

[Leo Gura]

Also, consider this:

I deliberately try not to act saintly because that is what makes students worship the teacher and leads to all sorts of unrealistic expectations. You see, if you discover that Ekhart Tolle watched some porn, this would outrage and disgust you because in his public persona he presents this image of a saintly figure. You probably can't even imagine Ekhart Tolle having sex. This entire stereotype is damaging and absurd. Ekhart Tolle's audience would be better served if he said FUCK! once in a while.

The trap is that as a spiritual student to go looking for ever-more saintlier teachers to validate your naive ideas about this work. And once you find this saintliest teacher, he feels so beyond you, so super-human, that you can't help but worship him and believe his every word. And later you discover that he eats meat, has sex, looks at porn, drinks wine, makes mistakes, supports centrist capitalist politicians, avoids paying taxes, hunts animals, kills a fly, gets a divorce, has sex with a hooker in Thailand, gets angry, or whatever else, and your whole fantasy about gurus collapses.

This work is not about acting saintly. It would be best if you dropped this expectation of saintliness. Saintliness is precisely what creates cult followings.

P.S. Your revered guru Alan Watts drank himself to death and you can't handle Leo enjoying some porn? I could easily not mention my enjoyment of porn to you, and then you would think I am 50% more saintly. I could further boost my saintliness by 100% by never saying FUCK any more. Ekhart Tolle drinks wine. I don't even drink. So HA!

Don't forget that your expectations for my behavior are largely your own fantasy, and I have no obligation play into your fantasy of how conscious people should behave. My only obligation is to not exploit you, not abuse you, and not mislead you into delusion. But if I want to watch some porn, then I will and you'll just have to go cry in the corner I guess.

[kag101]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, consider this:

I deliberately try not to act saintly because that is what makes students worship the teacher and leads to all sorts of unrealistic expectations. You see, if you discover that Ekhart Tolle watched some porn, this would outrage and disgust you because in his public persona he presents this image of a saintly figure. You probably can't even imagine Ekhart Tolle having sex. This entire stereotype is damaging and absurd. Ekhart Tolle's audience would be better served if he said FUCK! once in a while.

The trap is that as a spiritual student to go looking ever-more saintlier teachers to validate your naive ideas about this work is about. And once you find this saintly teacher, he feels so beyond you, so super-human, that you can't help but worship him. And later you discover that he eats meat, has sex, looks at porn, drinks wine, or whatever else, and your whole fantasy about gurus collapses.

This work is not about acting saintly.

Good point! 

I'd add that many spiritual teachers who act "saintly" often have skeletons in their closet (sexual abuse, corruption, etc.) 

[Ivan Dimi]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No you can't. Don't encourage this.

Sorry, it wasn't my attention. I just don't get the over identification with the forum and the fear of being banned by just saying an opinion.

[Ivan Dimi]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, consider this:

I deliberately try not to act saintly because that is what makes students worship the teacher and leads to all sorts of unrealistic expectations. You see, if you discover that Ekhart Tolle watched some porn, this would outrage and disgust you because in his public persona he presents this image of a saintly figure. You probably can't even imagine Ekhart Tolle having sex. This entire stereotype is damaging and absurd. Ekhart Tolle's audience would be better served if he said FUCK! once in a while.

The trap is that as a spiritual student to go looking for ever-more saintlier teachers to validate your naive ideas about this work. And once you find this saintliest teacher, he feels so beyond you, so super-human, that you can't help but worship him and believe his every word. And later you discover that he eats meat, has sex, looks at porn, drinks wine, makes mistakes, supports centrist capitalist politicians, avoids paying taxes, hunts animals, kills a fly, gets a divorce, has sex with a hooker in Thailand, gets angry, or whatever else, and your whole fantasy about gurus collapses.

This work is not about acting saintly. It would be best if you dropped this expectation of saintliness. Saintliness is precisely what creates cult followings.

P.S. Your revered guru Alan Watts drank himself to death and you can't handle Leo enjoying some porn? I could easily not mention my enjoyment of porn to you, and then you would think I am 50% more saintly. I could further boost my saintliness by 100% by never saying FUCK any more. Ekhart Tolle drinks wine. I don't even drink. So HA!

Don't forget that your expectations for my behavior are largely your own fantasy, and I have no obligation play into your fantasy of how conscious people should behave. My only obligation is to not exploit you, not abuse you, and not mislead you into delusion. But if I want to watch some porn, then I will and you'll just have to go cry in the corner I guess.

Sure, I get und fully understand what you're saying. Me personally, I am against blindly following and taking too seriously anybody (from Jesus to Hitler), but at the same time learning from everybody (again from Jesus to Hitler). 

In spiritually I usually just listen to my guts / deeper intuition, because I don't think consciousness is something that I can grasp intellectually, so I fully trust my guts. So to bring again the example Eckhart. I don't really care what he is eating, if he is having sex or not. And don't even always care what he is saying, because it is almost always the same, but is rather the energy field around this guy I resonate with, it is kind of meditation just starring at him and somehow feeling with my guts the higher consciousness around him. Of course there is always the possiblity that it is a trap and hi is just a media product, and 'my guts' are somehow misled,... I can never know until I know ?

And again I don't & can't know who between Leo, Alan or Eckhart is 'most enlighten', but I resonate by guts feeling mostly with Eckhart (even if let's say he may be the least developed teacher). May be is just my spirtual level of development right now, may be I will resonate more with Leo in a further more advanced level)

And if you allow me a constructive criticism, it is not about the porn Leo loves ? (who doesn't ?) it's rather that you talk sometime to the audience in a slightly arrogant manner, especially if you talk about spiritually. 

 

[Leo Gura]

36 minutes ago, Ivan Dimi said:

it's rather that you talk sometime to the audience in a slightly arrogant manner, especially if you talk about spiritually.

Guilty as charged

[Proserpina]

@Leo Gura

Random question. 

Have your heard of the concept darkworker and lightworker?

I'm a huge fan of Steve Pavlina and I remember him talking about it extensively. 

[electroBeam]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

4) Sometimes my tone is obnoxious and arrogant. I will work on that in the future. You'll definitely see that improve as I grow.

Just assumed it was your health issues. 

[Preety_India]

 

 

Cool it guys.. COOL IT 

Whats this big fuss. Leo already admitted that sometimes he does that. Give him a break. 

Also try to focus on so many wonderful qualities of Leo.

Give that guy your feminine energy.. He is starving in his masculine energy. 

Send Leo some of your love. 

 

 

 

[Extreme Z7]

9 minutes ago, Proserpina said:

Have your heard of the concept darkworker and lightworker?

He has a post in his blog about it.

[diamondpenguin]

Why does everyone gotta complain about shit all the time. Leo's arrogance spices up the videos. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by diamondpenguin