Leo's toxic rhetoric and an inner conflict

[Martin123]

Hi Everyone, I have something to share, this is more about my inner emotional process of coming to terms with the inner conflict I keep feeling.

First of all, I love serving the evolution of everyone here with anything I am able to offer anyone seeking to improve/heal/awaken or surrender and make peace with. It's such a joy for me because I am the recipient of the positive quality of anything that comes through me for another person, no matter whether they are able to receive it or not.

That is why I love this place, because there are people who are ready and willing to heal and grow, and thus my abilities are put to a good use of meeting other people's needs for expansion. I am not in a place in my life right now where I'd be able to or had the energy to start and sustain my own platform for whomever would be interested, and so this is a great opportunity for me to still contribute, while still having enough energy to preserve for myself and my ongoing healing and awakening process.

But I can't get behind anything Leo says/does here and it makes me feel as if I was a silent ally to something I fundamentally disagree with, and find incredibly destructive.

It began with Leo posting a bunch of things in the dating/relationships sub-forum where the quality of the content was that of a 15 year old horny boy, rather than an awakened being.

Then I found the George Floyd topics, where Leo blatantly started victim shaming the poor guy.

Then I saw Leo dismiss the things that called him out and pointed out his toxic tendencies, and he accused them of self-bias, and said to me himself 'oh this is the big me talking, the GOD that is all of us', as if Leo had no personal accountability for the things he's saying here behind the excuse of 'being enlightened'. Here's some news, the BIG LEO is all of us, therefore hiding behind the bigger self is as ridiculous as pretending someone else's mother is really your own.

It's a massive spiritual ego-trip, and it is a complete conflict of interests for me, because the more toxic this place gets, the more I feel like I am a silent ally, and the less I find it productive for me to even offer anything to anyone, because most of it gets just drowned in a pile of dismissal and blame-games pretending to be spiritual.

 

May I also point out that while thankfully this isn't a cult, having a spiritual teacher unwilling to acknowledge his massive blind-spots is extremely unfortunate.

Maybe other people feel the same way, if anyone feels similarly, may this be a permission to honor your feelings and intuition. I'm still somewhat emotionally attached to this forum so I don't know how easy leaving for good for me would be, I had left for quite some time but I came back because I still found joy in serving others. And now that motivation is withering away once again. It is not that I don't find it lovely to serve, it is that I find it equally important not to be an enabler and a silent ally to toxicity.

Whether I disappear forever, or this is just me venting here, thank you for being here and being on this journey with me, whether you feel like it or not, on the journey of healing and awakening, we are all in it together no matter the roles being played by each of us.

Love to all of you guys! 

[No Self]

Hopefully it is obvious that caveat emptor is an intrinsic part of any sort of fact-finding mission, especially with regards to matters like politics and spirituality. Perhaps it is for the best that no particular teacher is perfect, as this would cause us to fall into the trap of remaining reliant on outside sources.

I respect your grievances, but personally I think this forum is the best thing I've found in a long time. I think that the moderation strikes a good balance of allowing dissent but avoiding a scenario of letting endless flame wars erupt.

Best to not let perfect be the enemy of good.

[Martin123]

@No Self you are absolutely right.

I wouldn’t want anyone to believe a leader or a teacher needs to be perfect. Nevertheless there is a threshold for tolerance of what is acceptable level of ‘imperfect’ and what’s no longer tolerable, and I Am figuring that out, and allowing others to find this threshold themselves by being open about my process of healing and transformation, as well as being clear about the issues that can no longer be overlooked. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Martin123

[Martin123]

Here’s a nice analogy of why this is problematic.

 

Im actually afraid that by voicing these concerns I’ll get banned. 
 

If you compared this to a relationship dynamic, having a partner with whom  you’re afraid to share your honest feelings with, is one of the greatest red flags signaling a toxic relationship. 

[Leo Gura]

You won't get banned. Voice away.

I would never ban a person for constructive criticism. I ban people who are trolls and gaslighters.

[Martin123]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

You don't get banned. Voice away.

Thanks, Appreciate it. 

[Dryas]

I don't think he said that about George Floyd to justify the police officers actions. It might feel a little misplaced but I think there is almost an expectation from Leo's pov for one to connect the dots (though maybe not, this is just speculation). 

I don't know much about the dating advice stuff so I won't comment. 

[No Self]

Another way to look at it is that disagreeing on only a couple of points implies agreeing on a thousand.

"People are pretty much alike. It's only that our differences are more susceptible to definition than our similarities." - Linda Ellerbee (journalist)

Negativity bias evolved in humans because defending ourselves from danger mattered a thousand times more than positive, feed-good antics. But it does cause us to notice and even exaggerate disagreements, losing perspective in the process.

[Martin123]

24 minutes ago, Dryas said:

 

I don't think he said that about George Floyd to justify the police officers actions.

 

There was something about fear being a self-fulfilling prophecy and had he not been so scared cops wouldn’t have shot him.

 

you can’t blame a person for being fearful or having a panic attack, if we could control our fear then none of us would ever be afraid. The truth of the matter is that fear is a spontaneous eruption of emotional healing that is an agent of your emotional body initiating you into a level of healing, and if someone is Thrown off by your fear to the degree where they feel the need to suppress or attack you for being so overcome by emotion, it is the person doing the suppressing that is controlled by their own fear, therefore the one ‘fearful’ wasn’t George Floyd, it was the cop, it’s just that George represented and expressed the fear the cop has decided to deny and run away from.
 

George reflected his unconscious shadow, and the cop could not handle the contrast in his perception and attacked.

 

that is my perception of the situation (I must admit I don’t know many details). 

[Leo Gura]

1) George Floyd was resisting arrest very much. Excessive force was used. Trial should occur to sort out the details. And I still support BLM. Yes, the Floyd case was a self-fulfilling prophecy of his fear. But that doesn't justify the excessive use of force. My take on Floyd is nuanced. I did not "victim shame" him.

2) Dating advice has a very specific pragmatic context. It is not spiritual advice and is meeting the guy where he's at and telling him what he needs to hear to correct himself.

3) I tend to make posts on this forum rather casually and sometimes flippantly, because I make thousands of posts. These are not carefully constructed rhetorical masterpieces with hours of research. I'm spitballin here. Sometimes the posts are sloppy or rough.

4) Sometimes my tone is obnoxious and arrogant. I will work on that in the future. You'll definitely see that improve as I grow.

[Dryas]

@Martin123 I don't know if it was meant to blame him for his own death but to merely point out what George Floyd was doing. I would be surprised if Leo didn't understand the why behind his behavior. 

 

[AtheisticNonduality]

https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/j0cphy/filthy_thug/?%24deep_link=true&correlation_id=e7220696-799b-411e-82ad-40ad2dc201d9&ref=email_digest&ref_campaign=email_digest&ref_source=email&utm_content=post_title&utm_medium=digest&utm_name=top_posts&utm_source=email&utm_term=day&%243p=e_as&%24original_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FVaushV%2Fcomments%2Fj0cphy%2Ffilthy_thug%2F%3F%24deep_link%3Dtrue%26correlation_id%3De7220696-799b-411e-82ad-40ad2dc201d9%26ref%3Demail_digest%26ref_campaign%3Demail_digest%26ref_source%3Demail%26utm_content%3Dpost_title%26utm_medium%3Ddigest%26utm_name%3Dtop_posts%26utm_source%3Demail%26utm_term%3Dday&_branch_match_id=750881751801750844

[Nahm]

52 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

There was something about fear being a self-fulfilling prophecy and had he not been so scared cops wouldn’t have shot him.

 

you can’t blame a person for being fearful or having a panic attack, if we could control our fear then none of us would ever be afraid. The truth of the matter is that fear is a spontaneous eruption of emotional healing that is an agent of your emotional body initiating you into a level of healing, and if someone is Thrown off by your fear to the degree where they feel the need to suppress or attack you for being so overcome by emotion, it is the person doing the suppressing that is controlled by their own fear, therefore the one ‘fearful’ wasn’t George Floyd, it was the cop, it’s just that George represented and expressed the fear the cop has decided to deny and run away from.
 

George reflected his unconscious shadow, and the cop could not handle the contrast in his perception and attacked.

 

that is my perception of the situation (I must admit I don’t know many details). 

What would you have done as the cop instead? 

[mandyjw]

If something upsets you, just say something. Like you did. Sometimes it isn't clear whose fault it is, our projection, their problem, a misunderstanding or both our problem's, until we communicate. 

[Thestarguitarist14]

I will say that I have been take aback by how his dating advice is so pick up oriented.  In a way I get it as if you are a guy who is shy and has never really just picked up a randomness woman, pick up will change your life.  But at the same time I thought that he would have a bit of a more mature perspective on dating I guess.

 

The biggest issue with that is he is encouraging others to stay in this stage orange/achiever level concept of dating. Like that is all that it is,  I get that he does not want to be spiritual with dating.  But ARGGH, why the hell not?  If I want to talk about pick up artists there are better forums with guys who are great at pick up to go to, not actualized.org.  Do we really want to be promoting that?

I had no idea about his comments on George Floyd.  As a black man that is very disappointing.

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Thestarguitarist14

[Forestluv]

Placing disproportionate causation onto the victim is a subtle form of "victim shaming". Zooming in to the immediate events that transpired has value, yet if someone is locked into zoom in - the bigger picture inputs are missed and erroneous conclusions are made. Similar to a cellular biologist zoomed into the function of a single protein and then making conclusions about it's relationship to schizophrenia. This has value, yet the biologist also needs to zoom out and see how this protein interacts within a system of a larger protein network, which in turn is within a neural system, which is within a social system.

In Leo's 64 keys to a good life, two of his keys were that direct experience is king and don't judge if you don't have direct experience. In this case, the direct experience of living in an environment in which a person cannot fully trust the police or justice system is a key part of understanding the bigger picture dynamics. Importantly, this mistrust is legitimate due to systemic racism of an environment in which poc are targeted, abused and screwed over in the justice system. It's not simply intellectual awareness. Direct experience is king and I'm observing a lot of people making judgments that are either: 1) unaware that they lack this experience, 2) unaware of the value of this experience or 3) dismiss the value of this experience.

Before I traveled through central and South America, I had plenty of theoretical knowledge of systemic racism - yet I lacked experience. I had no idea what I was missing. People would tell I was missing something and I thought imagining what it might be like was sufficient - I was wrong. There were places in Honduras and Colombia in which locals pulled me aside and told me to be careful with police. As a white tourist, I was vulnerable to being targeted and abused by police and getting screwed over in the justice system - even if I didn't do anything wrong. They could make up shit and create fines I need to pay for my release. I had no recourse or power. Yet 100% of the cops weren't bad and they didn't misbehave 100% of the time. "You just don't know" was told to me. At times I felt fear, yet to say getting into run-ins with police, getting abused and screwed over in a justice system was a "self fulfilling prophecy" puts waaay too much of a burden on me and is a myopic view. And it would be a subtle form of victim blaming me, that I brought it onto myself through my fear. The problem with that is that fear is not the biggest factor. When locals in Honduras and Colombia were giving me advice about how to interact with cops "Don't fear" didn't even make the list. To anyone claiming that I would respond "Go live in sketchy areas of Honduras and Colombia - and then get back to me about self fulfilling prophecies of fear".

And the direct experience is king here. There were times in which I did nothing wrong or something trivially wrong and evading or resisting a cop was an option on the table - for legitimate reasons. I think people without this experience have a very difficult time truly knowing what this is like. Over and over, I see white people lacking this experience omitting this piece. Yes, having a fearful response can contribute to immediate events, yet that is just one piece of a larger system and it's important to zoom out. 

[Shin]

Leo improved a lot this past year.

It's not like he is not aware that he can be arrogant or insensitive at times, it is impossible not to be conscious of that and want to work on it at the construct-aware/unitive stage(s).

Also, the way his mind works can be very different than yours, and even when it feels like he is arrogant or insensitive, actually it can simply be a misunderstanding about what he is trying to say from your part (by the way he is saying it, or simply a total projection (since your mind works differently)).

If you really want to help people, I don't see how Leo sometimes acting like a jerk (from your pov) is a problem.
It's like saying you will stop to hug your spouse until a different president is elected, doesn't make much sense

 

 

 

[Martin123]

1 minute ago, Shin said:

It's like saying you will stop to hug your spouse until a different president is elected, doesn't make much sense

If my spouse was a daughter of Donald Trump, I would say that until she is engaging in any type of toxic relationship with him I will keep my distance as I am not interested in leaking that type of insanity into our relationship.
 

18 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Placing disproportionate causation onto the victim is a subtle form of "victim shaming"

This is a really nicely crafted sentence, I love it!

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

What would you have done as the cop instead? 

This is just a deflection, it would be irresponsible of me to even be a cop because I am not wired for it, therefore what I would do is a moot point because I am not a cop, and hopefully will never be. If you shoot a black man in this situation, it is also likely irresponsible of you to be a cop.

 

@AtheisticNonduality Alright I giggled

[Martin123]

3 hours ago, Dryas said:

point out what George Floyd was doing.

what GF was doing is probably quite irrelevant. 
The idea of victim shaming is that you were treated in some sort of an unfair or abusive way, and something about YOU brought it about.

But see that is the whole 'take 100% responsibility for your life' idea, that gets twisted. Yes take responsibility, but it is equally irresponsible to take responsibility for the things that aren't really your responsibility. In this situation, to 'be responsible in your attitude', you should never EVER take responsibility for being shot. Because you are not the problem, the shooter is, and if you take even an inch of responsibility, you are taking away the pressure that shooter needs in order to go through a reformation process and went from a role of a persecutor, into the role of a hero and a saviour of the day. We need victims to renounce every bit of responsibility, and villains to take all of it, in order to restore the right relationship that has been distorted with abuse of power on this planet.

[Dryas]

@Martin123 I don’t think what he (GF) was doing is irrelevant. It helps explain the subsequent action taken by the cop and perhaps better understanding his perspective (again, not justifying it).

I don’t think he is talking about ‘personal responsibility’ in that right wing kind of sense. It’s a matter of perspective, I think.