Changing the Mind of a Conspiracy Theorist

[peqkno]

Formerly titled: Mission: get dad outta conspiracy theories and cultish activities. (Excuse the click-baity title, or not.)

Tl;dr: Would like to change the views of my dad, or him becomeing aware of the structure of what he's involved in. How would you make someone question their conspiracy theories or see through or drop them? Any tactics?

Hope the rest of the context can serve some of you as an example or be of entertainment:

 

@Leo Gura's latest video on conspiracy theories, the trap of toxic life purpose and the cult series tied in nicely together for me to get an understanding of my dad.

For some years now, my dad (in his sixties) started reading and watching non-mainstream "news" sources and media which I would consider conspiracy theories and woo. Like the illuminati, Obama's wife has a dick, jews rule finance, NWO ... kind of thing. Even sending me some more racist ideology content and memes. In the last months there has been more of an involvement in an online group which pinged on my cult-radar.

I've talked to him once about that seeming like a cult to me, warning him and reading some quotes from the cult video. In the end it went better than expected (I didn't have high expectations), which means I got dismissed, him saying it is not a cult, him not being curious about it, but defensive, saying in an somewhat loving (implicitly belittling) tone: "I got it figured out, I take care of myself..." - while in my mind he's essentially walking down an avenue he has little clue about, with no understanding of the dynamics. ... I imagine the discussion would have been much easier if he were aware of all the defense mechanisms he pulls.

What really bothered me was when he joined the private messaging and voice chat of one of these groups (because well, confirmation bias, bubble, my fear he might get radicalized, him finding that as a source of community, etc. ...) with motivation and eagerness rarely witnessed before.

We're in Germany. This thing he joined there is some group of people basing itself on some older laws, seeing the government as an American Corp (iirc), and joining people who will join create a true-to-the-law committee which will serve the people. (< this is more of a carricature than a description of the thing. I'm not familiar with the jargon and English or German words and proper use.)
They have like a news site (with some actual good health info), some YouTube channel, (BitChute, VK, Gab and other media, ...) and near daily meetup and internet-radio show where people like call in and ask questions. (I could link to it, if it would serve the discussion, though it's in German.)
 

At least in certain topics my dad does seem to have a high cognitive development, making nuances points, understanding misunderstanding between us from a more meta view, some green values like health and quite some openmindedness it seems. Only shocks me more then, when he pulls some Stage Blue, stuck-in-their-own-perspective "sources of Truth" videos, QAnon stuff, or thinking Trump is a genius (and calling me retarded and stupid for believing otherwise).

 

One thing that worked somewhat well was me researching the background of this leader dude, and I found some people calling him (or someone of similar name) demagogue, which then turned my dad more skeptical towards it, but didn't really end up anywhere.

Also I tried to reason about a point I heard the host of the show make, namely whether it would at all be possible to turn the pyramid scheme (this country) bottom-up (which is a goal they had), without the rest of the world forcing it back to homeostasis, ... him thinking if they see how fine it worked for us they would too.

Somewhat promising seems to argue more towards that it is not possible one group leading the world, which he nearly understood. (But it wouldn't resolve the deeper issue of him not knowing shit about epistemology or being self-aware of his mind's defenses.)

(may delete some of the content here, cause I do feel a little uncomfortable sharing some of this)

 

 

 

Has anyone ever challenged/changed the views or conspiracy theories of someone succesfully? Or do you have any tactics you can suggest?
(I wish I could just sit him down watch 2 hours of Leo and have him think it all through, ... but doesn't seem practical.)

 

Leo already mentioned some tactics I think I can apply:

• falsification (asking him how he would ever know if something he beliefs were false; finding contradictory evidence)
• opening his mind with "Imagine ... "

And something I came up with would be

• me becoming so super interested and curious that I ask lots of questions about this cultish-thingy and want to partake in it... asking questions curiously: What do they believe? Letting him explain all that stuff to "convice" me, while he becomes aware of all the holes.
• being a pain in the ass and calling it cult thing daily and slipping that in till he is willing to look at some "evidence" I bring

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by peqkno
more general title applicable to more people

[Preety_India]

 

He lacks in self introspection and skepticism. He needs to study his own mind and be Skeptical of it. 

He is not reflecting on himself. He is having his own delusions and is not aware of it. 

Such people are enveloped in their own self deception. He is not able to challenge his own thinking and mind. He can't doubt himself 

Some people like to believe what they want to believe. It's their bread and butter.. They think their livelihoods are hinged on it. 

It's a survival war for them and they are the crusaders in this imaginary self created war epic. 

They have taken the role of the crusader and with great effort they go about hammering everyone with their ideologies and toxic beliefs about other races and the world. 

Deep down they're looking for a validation for their hate via a conspiracy theory. They want to feel justified why they are xenophobic to the whole world. 

It's that simple. So they carefully craft these conspiracy theories. To suit their agendas.. 

There's no other conscionable reason why they would believe such stupid nonsense when plenty of evidence suggest otherwise. 

Think of conspiracy theories as similar to the Salem Witch Trials and the burning of the Witches. Consider it similar to Mob Lynching. Consider it similar to the Holocaust. Consider it similar to the Church jailing Galileo for his discoveries. 

It's all about hating something that goes against their mental bias and beliefs. It's about alienation of groups of people that they don't want to exist. Like Hitler didn't want Jews to exist. So he started propaganda against Jews. That's the oldest example of a conspiracy theory.. 

 

Creating conspiracy theories is itself the biggest conspiracy of our times. Fodder for thought.

 

Such people will most likely never change. Sorry. Facts. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Preety_India

[Leo Gura]

You gotta get him to realize it isn't others he should be skeptical of, but his own mind.

The problem with all such people is that they do not turn their skepticism inward. They do not take the possibility of self-deception as the #1 threat.

Why do people get so deluded? Because they don't turn inward to doubt their mental processes.

[Nahm]

@peqkno

Just suggest he looks up the definition of conspiracy. 

[Opo]

1 hour ago, peqkno said:

And something I came up with would be 

• me becoming so super interested and curious that I ask lots of questions about this cultish-thingy and want to partake in it... asking questions curiously: What do they believe? Letting him explain all that stuff to "convice" me, while he becomes aware of all the holes.

I've used this effectively.

Be more passive so he doesn't get defensive. If you try to force it he will feel it.

Just go inch by inch and have patience. Don't expect him to change completely in a single conversation. 

What I'll try in the future also is "have the balls to admit that you don't know". That stayed with me. 

But that only works on certain types. 

[peqkno]

@Nahm Nice, will be part of me strategy. The German wikipedia article is really well written. Will look for some simpler hq definitions.

@Opo Yeah, good advice. One thing I'm concerned with is what'll fill the vacuum once this thing is questioned and done (like where he gets his sense of contribution and community, ...; which are part of what got him there in the first place). Or I'll just see and let it evolve. What filled the vacuum in your case?

 

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You gotta get him to realize it isn't others he should be skeptical of, but his own mind.

Agree. Can frame this endeavor now positively as "Mission: Turn Dad into a True Skeptic." Thanks again for teaching me that lesson yourself.

 

9 hours ago, Preety_India said:

They have taken the role of the crusader and with great effort they go about hammering everyone with their ideologies and toxic beliefs about other races and the world. 

Deep down they're looking for a validation for their hate via a conspiracy theory.

Slight us-vs-them thinking and generalizing there yourself. But besides, I entertain (for my dad at least) more the theory that it'll be painful to admit that the reason he didn't have the life he would've deeply desires to live was and is himself. So while the mind buys into it's own victim thinking and not taking responsibility and mental bullshit they have no one taking them meta of what is going on. If they knew what they did, they wouldn't do it.

If I wouldn't have stumbled upon Leo's vids and self-help and had all the free time and other luxuries I have, I would've likely been there myself. Been down the RedPill rabbit hole myself, so I had a good example to learn how warped and real and complete ideologies/beliefs/narratives look.

[Leo Gura]

@peqkno Another tack you could try is to get him to FEEL that what he's engaged in is dirty. His heart knows the ideology he's engaged in is not pure if he just bothers to feel into it.

Search your feelings, father...

 

[No Self]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@peqkno Another tack you could try is to get him to FEEL that what he's engaged in is dirty. His heart knows the ideology he's engaged in is not pure if he just bothers to feel into it.

Hmmm... I might try this with my 'new age' friend who is down the QAnon rabbit hole. I definitely know that any sort of intellectual admonishment is pushing crap uphill.

[Leo Gura]

@No Self Boiled down the its essence the question is this:

All this QAnnon stuff -- is it aligned with the highest love and consciousness, or fear and resentment?

That's how you tell it's wrong. That's how you tell conspiracy theories are wrong.

Of course the problem is that a QAnnon devil will try to convince you that QAnnon is aligned with love and consciousness because it is protecting children from evil pedophiles. Which is precisely why QAnnon is so toxic. It's a self-reinforcing mind virus.

[Rilles]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@peqkno Another tack you could try is to get him to FEEL that what he's engaged in is dirty. His heart knows the ideology he's engaged in is not pure if he just bothers to feel into it.

Search your feelings, father...

 

Dont know if that works for everybody, when I was into CTs I thought I was doing something really important and it felt really good, I was the good guy exposing the evil. Beliefs and emotions sometimes go hand in hand, you can get so twisted into the beliefs, its an entire worldview. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Rilles

[Gesundheit]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@No Self Boiled down the its essence the question is this:

All this QAnnon stuff -- is it aligned with the highest love and consciousness, or fear and resentment?

Honestly, I don't see a difference between the two.

[peqkno]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Search your feelings, father...

 

That's cute of you Leo. Makes me wanna see Star Wars and for the first time see it's spiritual aspects.

 

As an update: Talked to my dad, curiosly asking about what is going on etc, he was eager to talk. What often surprises me is that in some ways he has certain Yellow elements, is willing to admit "I don't know." (at times), certain meta awareness, and ways he talks ... (not sure to what extent I've blown out of proportion the race things). He dismissed reading the wiki article on Conspiracy Theories as a "waste of time". All in all a step to success.

In my case I'll go further till he reads the wiki article, and let him make the distinction between conspiracy and conspiracy theory which he seemingly starts to get more interested in.

 

Thanks again people for the replies!

[Opo]

On 10/10/2020 at 11:21 AM, peqkno said:

@Nahm

@Opo Yeah, good advice. One thing I'm concerned with is what'll fill the vacuum once this thing is questioned and done (like where he gets his sense of contribution and community, ...; which are part of what got him there in the first place). Or I'll just see and let it evolve. What filled the vacuum in your case?

It's hard to isolate a specific thing because everything affects it and I'm not them. But if I had to id say pets, sports, friends and family played the big part of replacing that vacuum. 

If he likes animals getting him a pet could be a big source of love.

[sholomar]

World events are a distraction.. I wouldn't try to change his mind... ever try to give anyone advice? Most people tend to resist it. Focus on your own goals.  My father is big into the idea of Germany winning world war 2 (starting their own government run bank and eliminating all the existing privately run central banks of the time) and jews controlling the planet also, and I used to share his beliefs until I came to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter if  they do or not. Many big breakthroughs in science have been by these "ashkenazi" bloodlines. They clearly possess above average intelligence. I give them credit for their achievements. 

He's also big into "How not to die" and plant based eating.. go figure from a guy who believes in a worldwide jewish conspiracy. He ignores that too much fructose in the diet can be harmful and just because sugar is "natural" such as from dates, doesn't mean you should eat half a bag. To him the book says chicken contains cancer viruses and dates are fine, so he won't ever eat chicken again. I'm not going to try to change his mind on anything. I love him and ultimately I'll let his experience be his guide.  He is happy, has a stable girlfriend, and a good retirement though. He doesn't overindulge to begin with so he'll probably be fine. He's more open minded that most and we throw ideas back and forth to each other. I'm glad to have someone as open minded to deeper topics of conversation as he is.  

My mother browses godlikeproductions, a conspiracy forum. Likewise I can throw quite a bit of unusual shit her way. It's all in good fun though. Her husband (step father) believes in bible prophesy and "Jack Van Impe" is something they used to watch in year's past. It doesn't really matter what they believe as long as it isn't harming anyone else. They are happy together also. They don't take life too seriously, which is perhaps something most content people have in common. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by sholomar

[from chaos into self]

Personally, i don’t care about changing the minds of others. Voicing my concern is all I’d do. If they don’t appreciate it, that’s on them. If my concern falls on deaf ears, there’s nothing else to be done.