Why is eating meat "bad" or less evolved lets say?

[integral]

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Because that's not what Is.

isnt this a bias towards evolution of consciousness?  Favouring the universe moving towards more conscious. 

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

isnt this a bias towards evolution of consciousness?  Favouring the universe moving towards more conscious. 

The question you asked doesn't make sense. Everything is "biased" towards evolution of consciousness. That is inescapable.

[integral]

1 minute ago, datamonster said:

Well yeah, what's the problem with that? This what all of Actualized.org is about. Would you rather favour moving towards delusion and ignorance?

Nothing right or wrong, just pointing to things. Pointing to and with duality. 

21 minutes ago, Scholar said:

The question you asked doesn't make sense. Everything is "biased" towards evolution of consciousness. That is inescapable.

Why is this the will of god? Isnt this the will of collective consciousness? The parts giving rise to the will of the whole. 

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, integral said:

Why is this the will of god? Isnt this the will of collective consciousness? The parts giving rise to the will of the whole. 

You can look at it that way but it's not the case. Isness isn't linear but "circular". It's hard to talk about this if you haven't seen it yourself.

 

The way you are framing the question already tells me that you are not conscious of certain aspects that will be necessary for you to have this conversation in a meaningful way.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Scholar

[integral]

@Scholar What do i need to do/learn to bridge the gap?

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, integral said:

@Scholar What do i need to do/learn to bridge the gap?

It's difficult for me to give any advice because this always came naturally to me. I will have to contemplate this and see if I can develope some sort of way to convey how one might go about inquiring into this sort of thing.

[commie]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

There are a few reasons for why this will inevitably happen:

• Environmental factors will force us to adjust our consumption significantly
• As society grows more mature, it becomes more compassionate in general, leading to an inability to accept the suffering and death we are causing to others
• Technological progress will render it inefficient to grow entire animals for specific parts

Leaving aside your misplaced certainties, your first reason has to do with the amounts consumed and not with the consumption of animals generally (which the OP's question and indeed much of the rest of your post is about). Your second conflate suffering and death in the face of social trends favoring the latter over the former. And your third again has do with specific ways animals are raised, not the principle.

The OP compared human consumption of animals to the actions of wild carnivores. I sometimes encounter groups of wild grazing animals when I take a walk. A human hunter is if anything likely to cause less harm to such animals than wild hunters or indeed disease or old age. And it's naturally quite efficient to raise herds of domesticated grazing animals (which look if anything as if they're suffering less than their wild counterparts) in the same area. It's even necessary to preserve this environment.

[integral]

@datamonster Where would you place this perspective on Spiral Dynamics? 

[commie]

16 minutes ago, datamonster said:

Hunters often use this argument that by killing animals they are doing an altruistic thing because otherwise the animals will be killed by predators and die a horrible death. So, in their minds it's preferable to kill them rather than let the natural ecosystem do what it would normally do.

Another main argument hunters like to use is that by hunting they are helping with overpopulation and restoring the ecology.

This logic is completely absurd. You cannot hold these two ideas at the same time. It's a paradox because if you are in favor of the ecology you want wild predators to kill wild prey, which contradicts the altruistic argument that they hunt these animals to stop them from being killed.

Also, hunters will kill the strongest, most impressive animals they can find, whereas wild predators kill the sickest and weakest animals. So, actually what hunters are doing imposes a real threat to the ecology and evolution of species.

Hunters portraying themselves as the good guys really makes me sick. It's so absurd and disingenuous.

Your beef with unspecified mendacious hunters has nothing to do with the statement you were responding to. Do you understand why you're doing this?

[integral]

@datamonster

 

[integral]

3 hours ago, Scholar said:

Isness isn't linear but "circular"

Can you reword this? Give examples? What category or subject is this in? so i can research it. Would be a great help!

 

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

It's difficult for me to give any advice because this always came naturally to me. I will have to contemplate this and see if I can develope some sort of way to convey how one might go about inquiring into this sort of thing.

Perfect. 

[Scholar]

45 minutes ago, integral said:

Can you reword this? Give examples? What category or subject is this in? so i can research it. Would be a great help!

The thread I linked before should give more insight into this. I don't use the concept offered by other traditions, so I am not too familiar with them. They concepts themselves are really, really harmful to my own investigation, because they remove true curiousity and make genuine insight very difficult for me.

What I basically do in my posts, when I write them, is trying to conceptualize what is in my awareness. I am actively doing that as I write the post. This means I know what I want to convey, but I don't know how. The concepts are constructed as I write the post.

 

As I write the concepts out, I sometimes notice that what I am describing is actually something already known. For example I made many posts about the Weirdness and Impossibility of all Aspects of Isness, and as I look at that it seems like I am describing the concept of Illusion. It is quite interesting, but this is a really good showcase for how the concepts do not convey anything. See, what I was aware of seemed like nothing I ever heard of before. It didn't seem like the concept of Illusion I had in my head at all. I was infact struggling to conceptualize it at all. But as I did so, I started seeing the resemblence, and then I understood what the concept of Illusion was attempting to convey.

What I am describing here seems to me to be something like Indra's net, but not quite. The circularity, the Cause Causing itself, I don't know what concept that is. It could be the Snake Eating itself, which is why I used that metaphor, but I don't know much about that concept and where it came from.

 

Either way, I think the concepts will not help you, nor will the investigation of them help you, atleast if you are like me. I love exploring the unknown, and that seems to be only genuinely possible when I actually think it is unknown to me. When I had the Illusion insight, I was just focusing on the Isness of a rough surface, for example. I was really weirded out by what exactly that sensation is, and how different it is from other sensations. I wasn't meditating, I didn't have some silly intention to become conscious of something. I wasn't trying to investigate, I was just suddenly actually genuinely interested. It is spontanous, and it wasn't at all forced or planned.

These kinds of insights don't really feel like you come to know something new. It is more like an unraveling of a knot of confusion that you previously felt was Reality.

 

It's not that I can see circularity, it's that "Circular" is the best word I can use for this. I usually see images aswell, which would convey what I mean better I think, but I have no way of communicating those.

 

I more and more understand what is meant by what Leo used to say about paradoxes and how they are a feature of reality, rather than a problem. The paradox doesn't seem impossible anymore, rather the mundane seems impossible, and the paradox is that which gives rise to the mundane.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Scholar

[commie]

12 minutes ago, Scholar said:

What I am describing here seems to me to be something like Indra's net, but not quite. The circularity, the Cause Causing itself, I don't know what concept that is.

Isn't this causing simply part of the net?

[SgtPepper]

20 hours ago, blankisomeone said:

It’s not.

+1.

The right diet, is one that is balanced and maximizes how you feel. Try out different foods.

[Tarzan]

Lol for me the q was answered when I decided to trip on LSD and imagined myself as another being. Expand your sense of self and apply love. Vegan makes the most sense to me if you expand your sense of self to include other beings like animals. If you do that you will not want to eat meat or animal products. But also since you love yourself, you make sure to do regular bloodwork to see if you cover your nutrients.

as far as I know B12 is a must take supplement, that's basically it. You can cover all other nutrients you need with a well planned vegan diet (a wide variety of whole foods).

If you are a woman then you might need to pay attention to your iron levels, so doing bloodwork and seeing if your iron levels are ok is most important. If you confirm that you iron deficient then you need a strategy to correct it - more iron containing foods with vitamin C (helps absorption) or a supplement. Iodine is something not too hard to get, but might get deficient in if you don't use iodized salt or seaweeds like kombu (kombu has too much idoine so use within limits), wakame, etc.

carnitine, taurine, creatine not necessary unless you want to max out gym gains, in which case creatine is prob most effective, carnitine and taurine small effect.

Vitamin A - eat your carrots, or sweet potatoes, or other veggies. Vitamin D - get noon sunlight exposure, or take supplement if not possible.

As for anti-nutrients. Phytates are nutritious by themselves - anticancer effects. Although they decrease absopriton of some minerals, prob not a problem unless you confirm your levels are low. Oxalates - high in spinach, swiss cahrd, and some other foods, not a problem unless you have confirmed gut issues related to it.

Protein not a problem, absorption is good, while the ratio of essential amino acids is lower, you will get them in adequate amounts unless you only eat very low portein sources regularly for a long time. If you want to maximize gym gains look into protein powders, TVP, or gluten (healthy unless gluten intolerant which is like 1% of population). There are studies showing plant based protein powders work as well as whey. And if you compare vegans and omnivores, while matching protein intake, no difference in muscle gains. The only caveat here is that the amino acid leucine needs to be above 2g per meal as it signals the body to build more muscle tissue. That is about 30 g of plant based protein per meal which is easy to get with tofu, legumes, or just TVP, protein powders.

Basics - eat enough calories, eat a variety of foods, get regular bloodwork done to confirm you're doing ok.

I haven't expanded my sense of self to plants yet though, not that advanced atm. I wonder how they feel.

 

[PurpleTree]

3 hours ago, datamonster said:

No, the opposite.

Hunters often use this argument that by killing animals they are doing an altruistic thing because otherwise the animals will be killed by predators and die a horrible death. So, in their minds it's preferable to kill them rather than let the natural ecosystem do what it would normally do.

Never in my life did i hear this argument. I also haven't met many hunters.

Obviously there are more conscious and less conscious hunters.

[Tarzan]

Start thinking and contemplating about the animals perspective. Would I like to be held in an animal farm, in a small cubicle doing my good boy/girl work by suffering in a pit of shit and the farmers hassling me, making fun of me, sometimes torturing me? And when the work is done and I've grown to how big and bulky, am I willing to happily sacrifice myself to my generous, good human masters? After all they need it to sustain themselves, so I must die for them, to give them my love while denying my own? After all, I've not known anything else other than being in a cubicle of shit, that's what all my other fellow cows do, to me that's what life is, to experience pure suffering and hell.

Watching some documentaries helps imagine what they go through if you find it difficult to do it otherwise. Tripping on psychedelics can also boost your visualization and imagination skills. I don't want to go down that place anymore, I've already commited to doing my best to stay 100% vegan.

[BlackMaze]

This is what convinced me to go vegan before. As i said i don't eat completely vegan anymore. I'm just dropping it here in case someone passionate meat eater like i was want to watch it. 

 

[integral]

@Tarzan The description given is reason not to eat animals for people stuck at orange, its a very different matter at the yellow and turquoise level. This is not a moral debate. We all love animals past green, but yellow recognize that we are carnivores and understands the circle of life, beyond yellow accepts its self, green is very much in denial of human biology. 

[BlackMaze]

https://en.m.wikiversity.org/wiki/Are_humans_omnivores_or_herbivores%3F