Hierarchy of Perspectives

[Guest EmptyVase]

While I was running, I had an insight, which I wanted to double-check with y'all. I have only very little expertise in the absolute, so this is more about relativity.

The thought came rather random while running: Why is a perspective, relatively speaking, higher or superior to another perspective?

The insight: The more aligned the perspective is with the unspeakable, all-pervasive Truth, the higher it is in a relative sense.

Edited October 8, 2020 by EmptyVase

[Mindflow]

The being of higher or lower of a perspective there is technically a middle ground that can (generally) be expressed through different speculation like anything. Finite proof is a constant layer just like disbelief at peak moments. 

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Mindflow What do you mean by middle ground?

[Chakra Lion]

3 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

Why is a perspective, relatively speaking, higher or superior to another perspective?

 A superior perspective would be one that can witness and be aware of more than a single perspective at the same time. The more conscious it can become, the higher the perspective. 

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Chakra Lion Agreed! Being aware of the partial truths of any perspective is really a crazy skill (thanks Leo for explicating this) and a great tool to grow consciousness/lessen ego attachment.

I like how this goes both ways: Studying multiple perspectives can make you more conscious.

And vice versa: When you're getting more conscious, you can be able to appreciate more perspectives, as you stop clinging to your particular one perspective.

Edited October 9, 2020 by EmptyVase

[Proserpina]

@EmptyVase Beautiful

[Mu_]

@EmptyVase does perspective need to be on a scale?  What if it’s not. Does it really matter?  

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Mu_ Hierarchy was probably a loaded, misleading word. 

Does it really matter? Well, again, in a relative, life-purpose sort of sense, it's probably wiser to be an environmental activist, helping the interdependent system of this world, rather than being a neo-nazi trying to live up hateful ideologies. And in this sense, hierarchy may even be appropriated, as one tries to spread love, while the other one spreads hate. Hate or love to whom? The relative individual of course.

But I don't think that the same statement is valid for the absolute. Does it really matter with the absolute? I have no idea, probably not. But I'm not in the position to speak about that. All I know is that everything seems to be just partially true, as nothing can be Truth but Truth itself.. As Isness can only be pointed to, but never be fully outspoken as it already is.

So in a relative sense, perspective can be on a scale, as it is really useful.

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Jimrubin Thank you for the insightful text!

[Mu_]

@EmptyVase but what does putting it on a scale or making a claim about one or the other have to do with if those things exist or not. Do you think the scale and ideas of these activities makes the other go away or less desired?  Or do both so to say exist and scales or thoughts about them make no difference. 

Maybe they will ‘be’ there wether or not we feel they are higher better lower or encouraged towards one  

Hope that makes sense. Food for thought. 

P.S.  don’t get me wrong I advocate for kindness and environmentalism is part of that, but higher or lower, objectively better/worse is what I’m pointing to. From the point of each embodied organism or conscious entity better or worse is relative to them and may not be great for you or I but for them. 

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Mu_ Hmm, I'm not sure whether I understand the questions correctly. Not just some food for thought, but a whole corona hoarding! I will reflect on that. The only thing I can say for now is that yes, both exist. And then there's "me", adding projections in abundance onto that existence or isness.

But I see now, how thoughts about higher or lower perspectives, especially higher ones, can "disconnect" me further from Truth, as they are just further projecting onto what already is.. maybe.. let's take that certainty out of that statement 

[zeroISinfinity]

On 9.10.2020. at 8:13 AM, Proserpina said:

@EmptyVase Beautiful

Like chocolate belga. 

 

[Mu_]

5 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

@Mu_ Hmm, I'm not sure whether I understand the questions correctly. Not just some food for thought, but a whole corona hoarding! I will reflect on that. The only thing I can say for now is that yes, both exist. And then there's "me", adding projections in abundance onto that existence or isness.

But I see now, how thoughts about higher or lower perspectives, especially higher ones, can "disconnect" me further from Truth, as they are just further projecting onto what already is.. maybe.. let's take that certainty out of that statement 

What is confusing in this that you didn't get?  Sounds like you understood some.

[Superfluo]

@EmptyVase

I had the EXACT same insight some time ago. The more a perspective is pure, loving and accepting of all things, including other perspectives, the more superior it is because it is nearer to God's perspective which is all encompassing. However being inferior is not a bad thing.

Notice that the emotional/psychological state where the perspective comes from is important. So then you don't have a simple axis, but a multidimensional chart that takes into account defense mechanisms, quality of thought, range of emotions, ecc.

[Nahm]

@EmptyVase

The hierarchy of perspectives is known via the resonance in feeling throughout the body. It doesn’t involve anyone else. 

 

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Mu_ I think the formulation of these sentences is what confused me: “but what does putting it on a scale or making a claim about one or the other have to do with if those things exist or not. Do you think the scale and ideas of these activities makes the other go away or less desired?”

But the latter question sounds like the polar opposite of the question I answered to. Maybe I understood some, but as long as there is uncertainty, I can’t say that it is knowing.

 

@Superfluo Oh yes, taking the emotional dimension into account when judging these perspectives is something I'm regularly overlooking, as models like spiral dynamics can seem really objective (and of course the built up disconnection from my feelings over the last 10 years or so). But of course, reality is not that way. I've had a social media lecture recently at my university and boy, was I being judgmental the WHOLE time, bitching in my head about the misuse of social media, scamming people to monetize off of that. It was so hard to listen and focus on the actual lecture, even though it was really interesting! Ego just wouldn't shut up.. that's when I realized that working with the throat chakra may open up some uncomfortable truths about my way of thinking. I was really shocked by the impact of that event, 3 hours full of ego bitching.. even though social media will be a central key point in sharing my music. The irony! Thank you for pointing it out!

Edited October 11, 2020 by EmptyVase

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Nahm

Sounds like you're saying that the better you (honestly) feel in your body, the higher the perspective, as Truth feels good?

Btw I wanted to ask you this anyway: Can the road to discovering Truth be painful? I feel like I see the truth of things more and more. How self-limiting my thoughts are, how much fears of past, present and future dictate my life, how judgmental I am and how much this affects my overall wellbeing. It's like the shadow side gets really amplified. Just to show me, how I create my own suffering (see my above answer with the lecture).

I see a light at the end of the tunnel, but man it can be quite uncomfortable. I’m getting really in touch with my feelings lately. Discovering, that I buried a lot of undigested emotions was also a punch in the stomach. But at the same time, there are these moments, which feel incredibly great! Experiencing raw Life directly! Bread crumbles of Love showing me the way. And even compassion towards ego. Life feels a bit like a sinus curve right now. I even considered talking to you directly about that, but I first wanted to see, if I can deal with this myself.

The following, about the no self part, is just speculation. But I'll try to understand what you've said: These feelings occur. They can feel good or bad. But in either case, one could project that they are happening to someone, as if there's something solid about them. But those feelings just are. It's our mental concept about ourselves, which get added on top of those feelings, which create a self-image. But when tuning in to acuality, there is no self. Just Isness. Maybe a witness. Often times confused with personhood. Constructs.

[Mu_]

5 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

@Mu_ I think the formulation of these sentences is what confused me: “but what does putting it on a scale or making a claim about one or the other have to do with if those things exist or not. Do you think the scale and ideas of these activities makes the other go away or less desired?”

But the latter question sounds like the polar opposite of the question I answered to. Maybe I understood some, but as long as there is uncertainty, I can’t say that it is knowing.

 

@Superfluo

You seem to understand enough. Even in uncertainty, you seem know such and In this sense you always know.  Unless upon realizing this your not sure ? if you could be certain of uncertain or certain ?

[Nahm]

On 10/11/2020 at 5:46 AM, EmptyVase said:

@Nahm

Sounds like you're saying that the better you (honestly) feel in your body, the higher the perspective, as Truth feels good?

Truth Is good. 

On 10/11/2020 at 5:46 AM, EmptyVase said:

Btw I wanted to ask you this anyway: Can the road to discovering Truth be painful? I feel like I see the truth of things more and more. How self-limiting my thoughts are, how much fears of past, present and future dictate my life, how judgmental I am and how much this affects my overall wellbeing. It's like the shadow side gets really amplified. Just to show me, how I create my own suffering (see my above answer with the lecture).

You’re recognizing how ‘self limiting thoughts’ feel, and asking if this can be painful. Consider the analogy of how holding your hand on a hot stove feels, and what the solution could be. Truth is good. 

On 10/11/2020 at 5:46 AM, EmptyVase said:

I see a light at the end of the tunnel, but man it can be quite uncomfortable. I’m getting really in touch with my feelings lately. Discovering, that I buried a lot of undigested emotions was also a punch in the stomach. But at the same time, there are these moments, which feel incredibly great! Experiencing raw Life directly! Bread crumbles of Love showing me the way. And even compassion towards ego. Life feels a bit like a sinus curve right now. I even considered talking to you directly about that, but I first wanted to see, if I can deal with this myself.

The light is good. 

On 10/11/2020 at 5:46 AM, EmptyVase said:

The following, about the no self part, is just speculation. But I'll try to understand what you've said: These feelings occur. They can feel good or bad. But in either case, one could project that they are happening to someone, as if there's something solid about them. But those feelings just are. It's our mental concept about ourselves, which get added on top of those feelings, which create a self-image. But when tuning in to acuality, there is no self. Just Isness. Maybe a witness. Often times confused with personhood. Constructs.

Feeling can not feel feeling. Feeling is feeling. 

Feeling can not be thought. 

[Guest EmptyVase]

30 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Consider the analogy of how holding your hand on a hot stove feels, and what the solution could be.

Great analogy! Better let it go, before the dog smells that tasty, fried hand.

All of your answers are very much appreciated, thank you a lot!