No self = no beliefs?

[4201]

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Sometimes it's nice to observe the phenomena.

Imagine there is a happening that arises that we call "the sound of a bird chirp". Is that a belief? Is there a self holding on to the bird chirp appearance?

Imagine there is a happening that arises that we call "a thought of an elephant". Is that a belief? Is there a self holding on to the elephant thought appearance?

Imagine there is a happening that arises that we call "a thought that he is arrogant". Is that a belief? Is there a self holding on to the 'he is arrogant' thought appearance?

Be aware if the mind starts trying to figure this out logically. 

No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. ― Niels Bohr.

I think they are all beliefs. For the first you assume that what you hear is exactly what it was in the past (a bird in this case) but it could be something else, like a weird machine that has a strangely similar sound.

There's no problem in believing that sound is from a bird though. I think the problem arises when beliefs are about the self. In the case of someone being arrogant, just the thought of it implies some level of being bothered by it. People have thousands of flaws yet we don't really pick on every one of them, just the ones that bother us because of a belief of how we "should be".

To me the issue is more like, ok I found out I had this belief. Do I still believe it now? Do I believe that I believe it? I believe that I believed it just a while ago. Will I believe it again? I hope not but I cannot tell. Nahm does point out that the problem is to believe what I am now has anything to do with what I was in the past. 

[The0Self]

Notice how beliefs arise. Beliefs are not a problem. Technically, there is no problem, but for the illusory separate self (which by the way, isn’t happening), those beliefs meaning something, or needing to mean something, is the problem.

Need is no-need. No-need is need. Meaning is no-meaning. No-meaning is meaning.

Notice how this, what’s apparently happening, is indescribable. Try to describe it, and notice how the process of trying to describe it, too, is utterly indescribable.

[4201]

3 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Notice how beliefs arise. Beliefs are not a problem. Technically, there is no problem, but for the illusory separate self (which by the way, isn’t happening), those beliefs meaning something, or needing to mean something, is the problem.

Need is no-need. No-need is need. Meaning is no-meaning. No-meaning is meaning.

Notice how this, what’s apparently happening, is indescribable. Try to describe it, and notice how the process of trying to describe it, too, is utterly indescribable.

If there are no problems but the belief that there is a problem, then isn't belief a problem? If you say no then it's ok to believe there is a problem, and therefore there is a problem.

[Moksha]

Beliefs are fine, as long as you don't identify with them. If you find yourself arguing with someone over politics, or philosophy, or any other idea, beliefs become a barrier to presence.

[The0Self]

5 minutes ago, 4201 said:

If there are no problems but the belief that there is a problem, then isn't belief a problem? If you say no then it's ok to believe there is a problem, and therefore there is a problem.

In the dream? Of course it’s a problem. Hell, it can be terrifying. Anything can happen. There’s no safety for the dream individual. There is no individual though. The individual believes it and everything else is real — it seems to create that separation, but it’s just what seems to happen. It’s nothing happening; perfection appearing as imperfection. It doesn’t see the emptiness, because it is emptiness, and it’s everything. There is no real separation. It is awesomely hopeless, yes. It knows there’s a difference between hope and hopelessness, and it knows it’s real — that’s a problem for the dream, but not for what is.

[Nahm]

48 minutes ago, 4201 said:

I think I do believe there is a body moving through time

It is good to recognize, that a belief is already recognized, as a belief.  Also, there are billions of people. One will say video games are great, another will say they’re terrible. Which one do you listen to? I vote you, and the realization you don’t actually ever experience or know what anyone else is thinking. It only seems like this is so, if you mistake your thought about what someone else thinks, or what society thinks, as what someone else or society thinks. I think Leo has a video entitled something like “How to not give a fuck”. I’d watch that. 

“...the problem is to believe what I am now has anything to do with what I was in the past.”

May seem like I’m being critical or semantical, but I am saying this for your benefit - that is still a belief that there is a past & a ‘you’ that is or was in it. 

The belief is that there is a “past”. 

Direct experience says there is no past.  

Thought ‘says’ there is a past. 

Thought ‘says’ there is an “I “. 

In the same manor it can be said  - are you going to listen to what you think other people think, or are you going to abide in your source?  It can also be said - are you going to continue believing thoughts, or listen to your source and recognize you are believing thoughts which do not resonate with feeling, with source, with what is True - presently? 

That is presence. 

[Forestluv]

33 minutes ago, 4201 said:

There's no problem in believing that sound is from a bird though.

I’m referring to the appearance of the bird chirp itself - not the thought “that is bird chirp”

Would you consider the appearance of a bird chirp itself to be a belief? (No thoughts about it being a bird chirp arise).

[4201]

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

It is good to recognize, that a belief is already recognized, as a belief.  Also, there are billions of people. One will say video games are great, another will say they’re terrible. Which one do you listen to? I vote you, and the realization you don’t actually ever experience or know what anyone else is thinking. It only seems like this is so, if you mistake your thought about what someone else thinks, or what society thinks, as what someone else or society thinks. I think Leo has a video entitled something like “How to not give a fuck”. I’d watch that. 

Whenever I feel bad about myself I turn to video games. I binge them until I feel absolutely terrible. Then I hate them and I hate myself for playing them. I recognize that it's not the game's fault but I highly dislike the idea that someone somewhere will be in pain and stuck grinding my game for numbness and instant gratification.

My ideal is not to play them but to make one. I don't think playing video games is a worthy part of my lifestyle. Other people have different ambitions however and do not see video games as something to be avoided but something they are happy playing.

At the end of the day I think there is a way for me to minimize the addictive aspect of my game and mazimize the creative aspect so that it's most valuable. It's just easy to doubt myself on that aspect when struggle with video game addiction is also a part of life.

[4201]

3 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I’m referring to the appearance of the bird chirp itself - not the thought “that is bird chirp”

Would you consider the appearance of a bird chirp itself to be a belief? (No thoughts about it being a bird chirp arise).

No that's consciousness. I am not equipped for a discussion about I am God however, I never realized it. The mind can be called God and I have no problem with it. But the idea that I am the one who made that bird chirp as a way to construct this life for the purpose of distracting myself from emptiness is not something I can relate to in my direct experience.

I have no idea where the bird chirp comes from. It is 100% consistent with the materialistic paradigm but that is just a model which is defined from the consistency of those perceptions in the first place. The idea that I created it or that being = creating just doesn't arise naturally for me.

[Nahm]

5 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Whenever I feel bad about myself I turn to video games. I binge them until I feel absolutely terrible. Then I hate them and I hate myself for playing them. I recognize that it's not the game's fault but I highly dislike the idea that someone somewhere will be in pain and stuck grinding my game for numbness and instant gratification.

I am not trying to imply it’s always easy, nor that all realizations occur instantly...but what is to be seen there is projection. That scenario is a thought about what you want & what you don’t, being projected onto scenarios other people may or may not be experiencing. This might sound crazy and or helpful to you (idk) but I love video games. I don’t play them very often, but lately sometimes I play Red Dead Redemption 2. I like open world games & westerns. ?  Video games are a very positive thought for me. I don’t project my experience onto anyone else. Years ago, there was a sense, a feeling, that I was spending too much time playing video games. That was only relative to the knowing-feeling there was something more I was wanting to be experiencing. So, I wrote those things on my dreamboard, and am now experiencing them too. I would really consider that how you feel has nothing to do with video games, but about what you want, and writing what you want, on a dreamboard. Reality, like the birds, is ‘saying’ the same thing, over & over & over...”this present, is for you”. Receive this present bruh. Relax. Want, choose, enjoy, let all the thoughts which do not resonate with feeling, go. Those thoughts are for the birds. Sit outside, and give them to them. Let them go. The birds can handle it. They’re already flying. We’re learning how to. 

5 minutes ago, 4201 said:

My ideal is not to play them but to make one. I don't think playing video games is a worthy part of my lifestyle. Other people have different ambitions however and do not see video games as something to be avoided but something they are happy playing.

Judgement really is a bitch. It takes a lot of humility in letting beliefs go to realize how ‘deep down in there’ judgement really is. This is the work you are doing right now though, and it is most productive. Own the credit for the inspection work, in the sense, feel good about it! ‘There’ is the good feeling! 

Worth is like time, you don’t wanna believe yourself into them. You’re aware of time & worth, ‘they’re’ not aware of you. Own your proper place as awareness. Ask yourself “am I aware?”, and recognize awareness is magic, or other worldly, in that there is no ‘thing’ anywhere to be found which is anything like the awareness you are, of ‘things’. 

5 minutes ago, 4201 said:

At the end of the day I think there is a way for me to minimize the addictive aspect of my game and mazimize the creative aspect so that it's most valuable. It's just easy to doubt myself on that aspect when struggle with video game addiction is also a part of life.

The addiction is to thoughts, attachment, not experience, not ‘things’. 

[mandyjw]

1 hour ago, 4201 said:

 

Somehow you found out the real source of pain behind this mind-game I was playing. I struggle with the reason for what I'm doing with life. I am making a video game and it's getting quite close to a success yet I feel selfish for doing that. I imagine I should dedicate my life to others or solve issues people have with their lives. I genuinely think video games do not have a net positive impact on society, just perhaps a neutral one. Yet the success of such a project would bring me income which could allow me to pursue more conscious projects using the resources gathered.

Somehow I still despise this idea because it feels selfish. This is highly contradictory because I don't despise eating even if eating is purely selfish and for survival.

I make and sell unnecessary "stuff" for a living and got deeply into minimalist/frugal living for a while. The source of my income was making and selling things to people who had completely different priorities than the ones I idealized. That created quite an inner conflict. I thought that the thing I loved that I had put so much energy into learning and that had made me a living so far was a waste, and unaligned with my newfound "wisdom". I couldn't advertise or enjoy my work and feel authentic about it. Then several things happened to heal this, but the most memorable one was that I got a message from a woman who got really sick and was bed ridden for a long time period. She told me how much my work cheered her up during that time. I realized that no "one" heals, but there is healing and you never know where or how it comes from, as it always comes from the same source. 

[Forestluv]

@4201 It’s just another way of looking at it. It’s easy to see that a bird chirp is simply an appearance because we don’t relate to it personally. Any thought can also be considered an appearance like a bird chirp. Yet the mind and body can have a different relationship with thought.

If those chirps were birds telling me they were going to come and peck my eyes out - I wouldn’t be bothered at all by it - because I don’t speak bird language and I wouldn’t relate to the impulses negatively. 

Thoughts are similar, yet much harder to detach and see as bird chirps - due to associated meaning we give thoughts. 

[TruthHurts]

It is very controversial to say that you hold beliefs, one moment you can believe this, or that, another moment completely something else, or be completely different persona ,I  think more appropriate question would be why we chose certain beliefs, in certain situations, this is where term superposition come in handy and letting go is like being unmanifested form. 

[4201]

On 09/10/2020 at 2:25 PM, Nahm said:

I am not trying to imply it’s always easy, nor that all realizations occur instantly...but what is to be seen there is projection. That scenario is a thought about what you want & what you don’t, being projected onto scenarios other people may or may not be experiencing. This might sound crazy and or helpful to you (idk) but I love video games. I don’t play them very often, but lately sometimes I play Red Dead Redemption 2. I like open world games & westerns. ?  Video games are a very positive thought for me. I don’t project my experience onto anyone else. Years ago, there was a sense, a feeling, that I was spending too much time playing video games. That was only relative to the knowing-feeling there was something more I was wanting to be experiencing. So, I wrote those things on my dreamboard, and am now experiencing them too. I would really consider that how you feel has nothing to do with video games, but about what you want, and writing what you want, on a dreamboard. Reality, like the birds, is ‘saying’ the same thing, over & over & over...”this present, is for you”. Receive this present bruh. Relax. Want, choose, enjoy, let all the thoughts which do not resonate with feeling, go. Those thoughts are for the birds. Sit outside, and give them to them. Let them go. The birds can handle it. They’re already flying. We’re learning how to. 

Thank you for sharing this. It's true that gaming being detrimental is a projection. You really offer me a non-judgemental perspective that offers a way to look at the situation in a good light. Will try the dreamboard.

On 09/10/2020 at 2:25 PM, Nahm said:

Judgement really is a bitch. It takes a lot of humility in letting beliefs go to realize how ‘deep down in there’ judgement really is. This is the work you are doing right now though, and it is most productive. Own the credit for the inspection work, in the sense, feel good about it! ‘There’ is the good feeling! 

Worth is like time, you don’t wanna believe yourself into them. You’re aware of time & worth, ‘they’re’ not aware of you. Own your proper place as awareness. Ask yourself “am I aware?”, and recognize awareness is magic, or other worldly, in that there is no ‘thing’ anywhere to be found which is anything like the awareness you are, of ‘things’. 

I do recognize I have lots of judgements to let go of. But I think in this particular instance time management is still a good reason for me not to play video games. I do admit that judgements slip in there. Will work on that.

You point out something great here. While not true for time, I think I have understood value is the relationship an object has to "me" or any other subject. Since there is no me there's no value so anytime I imply value (using worth in this case) I am sneakily creating a self. In this case it is the self that wants to chase success to distract itself from the shame that is assumed. Perhaps the reason why I doubt myself so much is that I recognize that I don't need this success anymore since I no longer (need to) assume I have a reason to be ashamed. So the reason or purpose that drove me my entire life is now rendered invalid. The judgements has always been in place to try to steer me away from the shame. 

Honestly what I feel like I'm doing is trying to justify why I should still work on this project. In this thread I'm basically being a drama queen about the fact I no longer have a reason and I feel like there might be better things to do. I never had a reason though, I just thought I did. Maybe I don't need a reason to be doing it though. My best reason right now is to kickstart my career, pay the rent and allow much more freedom in my future endeavors using the possibly obtained income. I should just stop believing there is a problem with that. It is my judgement that is depicting it as selfish.

 

When you mention things that are "you want to experience" and writting those up on your dreamboard. Who is that self? How do you decide what is "wanted to do" if there is no self to want things?

Edited October 11, 2020 by 4201

[4201]

On 09/10/2020 at 2:30 PM, mandyjw said:

I make and sell unnecessary "stuff" for a living and got deeply into minimalist/frugal living for a while. The source of my income was making and selling things to people who had completely different priorities than the ones I idealized. That created quite an inner conflict. I thought that the thing I loved that I had put so much energy into learning and that had made me a living so far was a waste, and unaligned with my newfound "wisdom". I couldn't advertise or enjoy my work and feel authentic about it. Then several things happened to heal this, but the most memorable one was that I got a message from a woman who got really sick and was bed ridden for a long time period. She told me how much my work cheered her up during that time. I realized that no "one" heals, but there is healing and you never know where or how it comes from, as it always comes from the same source. 

Thank you! It is refreshing to hear your story. Similar to what Nahm said the "unnecessary" is a projection because we cannot define what is necessary to who since we are not them. I feel confident I can just stop doubting myself in every way possible and just do it now.

[Dodo]

@4201 no self is equivalent to selfless.

Selfless desires 

Selfless beliefs

Selfless action 

Selfless means not to expect an outcome to be a certain way. 

[Member]

Identity or random beliefs about reality is not the Self. The Self is that which exists i.e. YOU without any labels that limit your power.

[Vision]

On 10/10/2020 at 7:25 AM, Nahm said:

Years ago, there was a sense, a feeling, that I was spending too much time playing video games. That was only relative to the knowing-feeling there was something more I was wanting to be experiencing. So, I wrote those things on my dreamboard, and am now experiencing them too. I would really consider that how you feel has nothing to do with video games, but about what you want, and writing what you want, on a dreamboard.

@Nahm I don't know how I came across this year old thread... but thank God I did because I came across this golden nugget of a post from you. You single-handedly just recontextualized how I view instant-gratification. This is utterly profound. I really hope I don't forget this.

[RMQualtrough]

What no-self is observed by is what you are. It's just that that is nothingness. Any element of the self, be it a thought, or emotion, your name, sound, sight, memory, is going to observed by the nothingness...

So everything you would consider the self is an appearance to the sheer consciousness which is nothingness and what you are.

The sum total of everything, meaning nothing and all objects appearing to it (all period, so not just mine or yours but all existent objects) is just total infinity. It's not a God, not any thing, not nothing. It's infinity which encompasses BOTH nothing and something.