What is mental illness from nondual perspective ?

[Someone here]

 

How to define mental illness clearly?   I did some research but it's mostly referring to the "person ".  For example split personality disorder or dissociative identity disorder (DID) is described as "a mental disorder where a person has two or more distinct personalities. The thoughts, actions, and behaviors of each personality may be completely different.". 

Now I have had some no-self and nondual experiences recently and can see clearly through the "person". Or the self that is separate from the traits of the conditioned body-mind.. And to this " self" is the reference of being " disordered".

   The body-mind is simply programmed or conditioned to behave in a certain way and think in a certain way. Everything "you" do all day is simply a program that has been implemented in your mind over the years.. By your parents.. By your culture.. Society etc.  Also genetics play a huge role. this conditioning is what is called the "personality".. The personality is simply the conditioning of the program that you are operating under.   If you fly over to the other side of the world.. And you are forced to live under  radically new circumstances.. Your conditioning will change.. Which will result in a different personality..slightly or to a radically different degree depending on the degree of the change in the new conditioning. 

My point is.. the personality is just a program. It's not in the slightest little bit who you really are.  That's why you can act. That's why you can fake a personality that is not yours. Cuz it's just a mask. The fact that you can fake a 1000 different personalities in one day means you already have 1000 personalities inside of you. Potentially . Accurately they are just different characters that the empty self can take. 

I wonder how do we define the authentic self?  Or what should people behave like? Or what is a personality disorder?  If your kid suddenly started to act in a totally different way then he used to .. Does that mean he has a personality disorder?  Did he have a personality in the first place?  Why do we expect human creatures to act under a certain personality when just by one look inside ourselves we can see that we have hundred personalities(. Cuz ultimately we are none of them and all of them) ?. 

Thanks. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Someone here

[Mu_]

What is what from what perspective?

[willl]

I'm not sure if this applies to all disorders but in general I've noticed this:

mental illness can occur when you become intensely separate, which means there will be something in the world that intensely opposes you. or you may become so fixated on something which you strive to achieve complete control over.

there will be fear and paranoia around what the enemy happens to be, and pain and trauma when you come into contact. there will be fear and paranoia around obsession, pain and trauma when you lose control over it.

to survive, you become so identified with and attached to body-mind that you believe it to be the self, and the intelligence and energy of your mind/body is used against itself, causing great harm and suffering, while believing what you're doing it right/helpful/necessary. this imbalance prevents healthy functioning.

 

 

these instances involve
separation: being unable to accept certain parts of the self / whole,
impermanence: being unable to flow/cope with continuous change
control/ownership: attaching to things that don't exist or can't be controlled
identification: believing the body-mind, personality to be the self
fantasy: confusing imagination with reality
ignorance: being unaware of how to balance the mind and heal

 

[Someone here]

8 hours ago, Mu_ said:

What is what from what perspective?

LOL dude you just checkmated the hell outta my brain 

[Someone here]

@willl

8 hours ago, willl said:

I'm not sure if this applies to all disorders but in general I've noticed this:

mental illness can occur when you become intensely separate, which means there will be something in the world that intensely opposes you. or you may become so fixated on something which you strive to achieve complete control over.

there will be fear and paranoia around what the enemy happens to be, and pain and trauma when you come into contact. there will be fear and paranoia around obsession, pain and trauma when you lose control over it.

to survive, you become so identified with and attached to body-mind that you believe it to be the self, and the intelligence and energy of your mind/body is used against itself, causing great harm and suffering, while believing what you're doing it right/helpful/necessary. this imbalance prevents healthy functioning.

 

 

these instances involve
separation: being unable to accept certain parts of the self / whole,
impermanence: being unable to flow/cope with continuous change
control/ownership: attaching to things that don't exist or can't be controlled
identification: believing the body-mind, personality to be the self
fantasy: confusing imagination with reality
ignorance: being unaware of how to balance the mind and heal

 

Very helpful and informative.  Thank you. 

[Mu_]

6 hours ago, Someone here said:

LOL dude you just checkmated the hell outta my brain 

Good that was the intent. Did it lead to anything new, because it’s a very serious question, one I think your looking for ultimately. 

[Someone here]

24 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

Good that was the intent. Did it lead to anything new, because it’s a very serious question, one I think your looking for ultimately. 

Well I know what you are pointing to. The relative nature of everything.

So from a relative perspective.. We assume a separate self that should have a certain personality and behave in a certain way that is constant and unchanging.  My experience of no-self I can see the whole "self" "personality" thing is a just a bunch of conditiodned thoughts. So there is nothing objective about who you are or how you should behave or what defines being "normal" or being "mentally ill".  Yet we have those constructs they have relative and practical value.   Maybe it's linked to survival. The more you act in a constant way the higher your chances of survival. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Someone here

[Nahm]

On 10/7/2020 at 2:18 AM, Someone here said:

How to define mental illness clearly?

What’s mental illness relative to?

If there’s no free will, what’s with the ‘acting’, ‘surviving’, ‘conditioned’ vs ‘not conditioned’ references etc? 

Never had a lucid dream? 

[Someone here]

33 minutes ago, Nahm said:

What’s mental illness relative to?

Relative to being normal.  But being normal or ill is itself relative to what standards?  Ya get what I'm sayin? 

If there’s no free will, what’s with the ‘acting’, ‘surviving’, ‘conditioned’ vs ‘not conditioned’ references etc? 

I'm not sure I see the link. But there is an apparent body-mind that can act habitually in a predictable manner and survive and so forth.. 

Never had a lucid dream? 

I had ones.  What's the link lol? 

 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Relative to being normal.  But being normal or ill is itself relative to what standards?  Ya get what I'm sayin? 

Sorry...I didn’t mean comparatively, I meant more experientially. 

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

I'm not sure I see the link. But there is an apparent body-mind that can act habitually in a predictable manner and survive and so forth..

How are you seeing ‘acting’ in comparison to ‘free will’?

How can there be, in the defined sense, ‘habit’ without ‘not habit’ to reference? 

How does that relate (if at all) to ‘mental illness’? 

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Never had a lucid dream? 

I had ones.  What's the link lol? 

What makes one dream ‘lucid’ and another dream not?

 

“Look you are using the finite pathetic human...”

?

Intention! 

[Gesundheit]

A gift.

[Mu_]

@Someone here whats a relative perspective?  Really where do you find a non dual and a relative perspective?  Did you capture the two in a jar?  Are they different?

[Nahm]

@Someone here @Mu_

Thread made me curious, if you will. Hopefully without ‘writing it off’...

Would you guys absolutely deny experience? 

While I’m at it, if you’re game, would you say what is absolute is measurable in any way?

@Leo Gura 

Care to weigh in? 

@VeganAwake

If interested as well, love to hear from ‘ya’ too. 

[Mu_]

@Nahm what gave you the idea I was writing off something. 

Then maybe I could answer. 

Obviously if your pointing to “something” called experience then it would be silly for me to absolutely say it’s not there/happening since obviously “something” is happening, just not sure I’d limit it to symbols and meanings given to “experience”. 

Nor would I limit it to nondual, absolute or relative. Nor even limit It to inclusion of all those and Everything. 

[Nahm]

@Mu_

I didn’t think you were writing off anything. It was more of a preface. In hindsight, my comment was after yours so it may have seemed like it, sorry about that, I actually have the op in mind. Thanks for the reply, much appreciated! ??

[Someone here]

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

Sorry...I didn’t mean comparatively, I meant more experientially. 

In experience there is no such thing as being mental or being normal. The whole distinction is a mental fabrication. 

 

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

How are you seeing ‘acting’ in comparison to ‘free will’

You can act. But you don't have free will. Nothing special about the ability of acting that makes you have free will. There really isn't any you so what the fuck are we talking about? 

 

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

How can there be, in the defined sense, ‘habit’ without ‘not habit’ to reference? 

Yes the only thing that is not habitual is the true Self. As pure awareness. You are not conditioned as that. But the mistaken identity or the personality is itself just a bunch of habits. Change the habits. You are a new person! 

 

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

How does that relate (if at all) to ‘mental illness’? 

You tell me. In this thread I'm the student and you are the teacher. We can switch the roles later on ?

 

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

What makes one dream ‘lucid’ and another dream not?

Well when you are aware that you are dreaming while you are dreaming it's called a lucid dream. How does it happen?  It just happens lol. Still not sure what does that have to do with the topic lol ?

Edited October 8, 2020 by Someone here

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, Mu_ said:

@Someone here whats a relative perspective?  

A relative perspective means it's true relatively. It's not true in the absolute or in every possible sense.  For example what makes a person mentally ill?  Is there an absolute 1 2 3 God-given rules written somewhere in the universe that decides who is what and what is not?  

The absolute perspective is that of a no perspective.  As long as it is a perspective it's a POV.. It's relative.. Means in relation to something. Not universally or objectively true.  I hope I clarified it for ya. 

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

Would you guys absolutely deny experience? 

While I’m at it, if you’re game, would you say what is absolute is measurable in any way

No I don't deny experience if you mean this . It's just that the experience is not your experience. 

No the absolute is not measurable.  To put it as it is.. The absolute doesn't exist. Because exist is a relative quality. And the absolute is not relative. 

And in all that..... I don't know what does that have to do with the topic lol ??

[Gesundheit]

27 minutes ago, Someone here said:

A relative perspective means it's true relatively.

A perspective, by definition, is untrue. There cannot be a relatively true perspective. Only absolute truth.

[Someone here]

@Gesundheit please let's stay on topic.  If you have something of substance regarding the main topic go ahead. 

You are right tho. It's kinda paradoxical and twisted so let's not delve too deep into it. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Someone here