China question

[Opo]

@PurpleTree If someone made up a lie about your country and you corrected them. 

Would that be you defending your country? 

[PurpleTree]

13 minutes ago, Opo said:

@PurpleTree If someone made up a lie about your country and you corrected them. 

Would that be you defending your country? 

 

Well then we can not really believe anything anymore and we're back in the subject of conspiracy theories.¨

 

Turks say they are prosecuting Kurds simply because of terrorism issues, why should they lie?

 

Nazis had their "valid" reasons for prosecuting jews, they just attacked Poland because Germans were getting killed in Poland and Hitler wanted to defend them (not)

 

Also i know Tibetans who told me some stories.

 

But if someone made up a total lie about my country then i'd probably try to correct it yeah but what if i didn't really know the truth and just told them what i've heard through propaganda etc.?. Erik wasn't in Tibet when it was attacked and cleansed and i don't think he was in the "concentration camps" etc. etc.

[erik8lrl]

@PurpleTree Do your own research and come to your own conclusion if you wish to have a better understanding. How well do you really know about those events? About how and why they happened? What are the consequences of those events? How has it changed things?  From all the different perspectives. Can you see all the perspectives and have compassion and understanding for all of them? How much do you really know about Chinese history and culture? How well do you really know about the ins and outs of the evolution of the Chinese government and politics? Or of their governmental system today? Have you ever tried to look at the other side?  Or just assuming whatever the media saying is true?   

[Raze]

22 hours ago, louhad said:

 

Right! it is a different level of indoctrination. Stage blue is fascinating. I do think my intuition says that eventually, people will wake up as the material conditions improve though... but it may be a long time before that happens given the reasoning above^^^

Yep, it'll take generations.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Raze

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, erik8lrl said:

@PurpleTree Do your own research and come to your own conclusion if you wish to have a better understanding. How well do you really know about those events? About how and why they happened? What are the consequences of those events? How has it changed things?  From all the different perspectives. Can you see all the perspectives and have compassion and understanding for all of them? How much do you really know about Chinese history and culture? How well do you really know about the ins and outs of the evolution of the Chinese government and politics? Or of their governmental system today? Have you ever tried to look at the other side?  Or just assuming whatever the media saying is true?   

I said it a lot of times now, i know Tibetans who told me some things. I also know some people from HK.

So at least there i have some understanding, I can't know everything

[Opo]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

Yep, you can even see an example in this thread, many chinese blatantly swallow propaganda and deny a genocide that is actively happening in their country.

America did the same thing to Natives. 

I bet they justified it the same way. 

It isn't "Chinese" or "American" it's low consciousness. 

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Opo said:

America did the same thing to Natives. 

I bet they justified it the same way. 

It isn't "Chinese" or "American" it's low consciousness. 

Ok yea then that makes it ok?

Also one of them is happening in the Now (Eckhart Tolle voice)

And one already happened a long time ago and can't be changed

 

 

Let's assume it's true for a moment that is some kind of genocide, concentration camp thing happening.

There are Pros' and con's to that, like with everything.

Pro's: Might keep the country more stable for a while, instills fear in others, more uniform society (can be a pro and a con) etc.

Cons: There might be an uprising in the future, might make the divide and hate grow larger, makes the country look very bad, might be problematic for allies in the future like Pakistan etc.

We can also assume it's totally untrue, what are the ramifications of that?

[Opo]

48 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Ok yea then that makes it ok?

Also one of them is happening in the Now (Eckhart Tolle voice)

And one already happened a long time ago and can't be changed

Well, what do you propose we do? 

When west called them out, they pointed at the American borders. 

I propose we fix our own shit before we can effectively influence others. 

53 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Cons: There might be an uprising in the future, might make the divide and hate grow larger, makes the country look very bad, might be problematic for allies in the future like Pakistan etc.

Nah this form government can deal with uprisings easily. 

I'd say they lose the richness of humanity when they try to make everyone the same. 

But they won't care about that I guess until a generation grows up in the safe and stable environment that they are trying to make now. 

If you grew up worrying about the next meal or a terrorist attack you won't care about someone's freedom of expression. 

[invictus]

In regards to China, it is very hard to fully understand what is going on in China, and I say that as someone who grew up in China. Foreign reports can be hit-or-miss depending on specific issue, and the internal news is more centralized rather than diversified.

First of all, it is a "communist" country which prohibits worker unions and public assembly for protests even though it is stated in the constitution that you can do the things above. There has also been increasing suppression of Maoist movements in recent years, as some more radical 'leftists' in China believe than Xi is drifting away from what Mao represents. Ironically, you also have Deng loyalists who fully embraced the introduction of free market in China back in the 80s. What's even stranger is that both groups, although both hate each other, they all hate Xi who basically has done nothing yet except lifting the 10 years limit on the chairman position. Some speculate he is going to take back Taiwan as his prime legacy, but one thing for sure is that he is more unpredictable than former chairmans, and the fact that his family suffered from the Cultural Revolution only further puzzles me this man's behaviors. And you know the best part?? All of the internal politics inside the Party can only be somewhat deduced because we know so little of what is going on inside. My dad used to joke that if someone important does not appear in the journals anymore, that means he is replaced for unknown reasons.

So, in regards to what China does, I realized that from an outside perspective, it is hard to understand what it is exactly doing at times. CCP can be pushing aggressive environmental policies and actually implementing them while having no problem imprisoning foreign citizens who spoke against CCP when they were not even in China. Western Medias are not really helping in many cases either like when they try to compare China's investments in Africa with European Colonization when in reality it is a really complex issue because each individual investment is unique and handled by different chinese companies. Whether you like it or not, train rails are being built across Africa, and hydro stations are set up to power the electricity of cities. Personally, I find it dishonest to compare infrastructure building with literal slavery like many foreign medias do, but I also find it weird that many chinese people would defend the billions and billions dollars thrown to Africa when half of China is earning less than 200 RMB per month, which is not very socialist of them but whatever.The hypocrisy and the double standards displayed on both sides are simply incredible to witness.

Sorry i went on a bit of rant, don't hesitate to ask me specific questions about China if you have any. 

[erik8lrl]

 

[PurpleTree]

6 hours ago, invictus said:

 

So, in regards to what China does, I realized that from an outside perspective, it is hard to understand what it is exactly doing at times. CCP can be pushing aggressive environmental policies and actually implementing them while having no problem imprisoning foreign citizens who spoke against CCP when they were not even in China. Western Medias are not really helping in many cases either like when they try to compare China's investments in Africa with European Colonization when in reality it is a really complex issue because each individual investment is unique and handled by different chinese companies. Whether you like it or not, train rails are being built across Africa, and hydro stations are set up to power the electricity of cities. Personally, I find it dishonest to compare infrastructure building with literal slavery like many foreign medias do, but I also find it weird that many chinese people would defend the billions and billions dollars thrown to Africa when half of China is earning less than 200 RMB per month, which is not very socialist of them but whatever.The hypocrisy and the double standards displayed on both sides are simply incredible to witness.

Sorry i went on a bit of rant, don't hesitate to ask me specific questions about China if you have any. 

The French also built railways and probably also bridges etc. in Vietnam, the British and the East India company etc. did that in India and Europeans and European companies also built railroads etc. in Latin America. German rail companies built the first railroads in Tanzania and so on.

[Marxwa Sright]

Super interesting thread I found on twitter,  check it out https://twitter.com/RodericDay/status/1287411708374454273?s=19

[invictus]

3 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

The French also built railways and probably also bridges etc. in Vietnam, the British and the East India company etc. did that in India and Europeans and European companies also built railroads etc. in Latin America. German rail companies built the first railroads in Tanzania and so on.

Yes, and who did that benefit in the end primarily? The people who were colonized?? Don't get me wrong, the chinese investments in Africa are certainly not done out of pure benevolence. The CCP is trying to expand its global influence and soft power by gaining allies on the International stage. But to compare these infrastructure projects currently on going in Africa with those that were built in the colonization era simply in the benefits of the elite class is a false equivalence. Like I said the CCP is literally dumping billions of dollars oversea while ignoring the internal wealth inequality gap, so I am my reservations and criticisms about these money-burning mega projects, but to say the infrastructures built in during colonization era benefited the people equally than those of today is simply not true.

[Epikur]

@invictus

Good input. Feel free to drop more info and your thoughts.

[commie]

3 hours ago, invictus said:

... the CCP is literally dumping billions of dollars oversea while ignoring the internal wealth inequality gap, so I am my reservations and criticisms about these money-burning mega projects, but to say the infrastructures built in during colonization era benefited the people equally than those of today is simply not true.

The CP isn't burning billions overseas in spite of the inequality but because of the inequality, exactly like your typical European imperialist state back in the day.

And if you object to spending billions on Africa, what of the the billions that have been spent on the USA when the average Chinese was even poorer?

14 hours ago, invictus said:

Sorry i went on a bit of rant, don't hesitate to ask me specific questions about China if you have any. 

Since you're offering... are most Chinese unaware that their government is propping up the USA and more generally that these two states have been allies since Nixon?

Thanks for dropping by and speaking up!

[invictus]

@commie Look, the money spent in foreign territories always has pros and cons, the pros are to boost your international status and future cooperation with other countries among other things, and the cons are that it could backfire if a country does not spend it wisely or addresses the wrong problems. That being said, the CCP is not investing money in foreign territories to address the inequality issue within China. Like I mentioned above, if the central government really cares about the workers conditions and well-being. They should first allow formation of worker unions despite the fact that the official discourse is that China is ruled by the working class.... There are so many simple things that they can do to immediately improve the wealth inequality situation, but they are not doing so. Hence, I highly doubt the argument that CCP is pouring all these money in Africa to address the inequality issue within China, if anything, it improves African lives, but certainly no visible benefits for the vast majority of Chinese apart from those who work in these projects in Africa.

I am not sure what you are referring as for the money spent on USA, I can think of several potential things that are related to this, but you have to expand a bit more. Although I will say that from a citizen's perspective, I will always put the well-being of the people in front of the country, and if I can at least allocate some of the money into the hands of the Chinese people who need it, I would absolutely do it. 

Here's the thing, only North Koreans are still unaware to what is going on around the world. So yes the vast majority of Chinese know that China and USA have been close since the Nixon. In fact, they knew it since Nixon's visit, because the political tone at the time was actually more aggressive towards the USSR than it was towards USA. Nixon and Mao both "needed" each other to contain Soviet Union, which led to the ironic statement by Mao who said that he preferred the Republicans over the Democrats because at least the Republicans are openly against Communism while the Democrats can stab you from the back. The lesson here is that the majority of Chinese are taught very biased political lessons and ideologies, they do understand the basics of geopolitics better than most people on this planet.

I would not use the word "propping" because the two countries are in a codependent situation. The Chinese always knew that USA was superior to them in every conceivable ways. However, that sentiment has changed in recent years with China making more and more breakthroughs( like GDP, 5G adoption,...) The election of Trump back in 2016 is a "proof" among others in the eyes of many Chinese people that western democracy is not the only viable pathway to build a successful country. The great firewall (which i oppose) serves as a information filter nowadays rather than information blockage. The CCP and the news network used to selectively choose bad press on USA for example and report them, but today they don't even need to put in massive propaganda efforts because the whole country is in a massive echo chamber like any other social media. Access to information is a lot more convenient nowadays in China unless that information directly harms CCP's reputation or destabilize the regime. Hence why you can find tons of info on Belarus in general, but you won't find any news on the recent protests going on in Belarus as an example. 

20 minutes ago, commie said:

The CP isn't burning billions overseas in spite of the inequality but because of the inequality, exactly like your typical European imperialist state back in the day.

And if you object to spending billions on Africa, what of the the billions that have been spent on the USA when the average Chinese was even poorer?

Since you're offering... are most Chinese unaware that their government is propping up the USA and more generally that these two states have been allies since Nixon?

Thanks for dropping by and speaking up!

 

[commie]

58 minutes ago, invictus said:

That being said, the CCP is not investing money in foreign territories to address the inequality issue within China. Like I mentioned above, if the central government really cares about the workers conditions and well-being.

Of course not. The CP is investing abroad in order to keep the Chinese people poorer than they could be. If you're not spending the surplus abroad, either you're not producing as much as you could or you're spending it at home. Don't they teach exploitation, imperialism and stuff in Chinese schools?

In any case, I obviously agree: independent unions and public spending on human needs (education, health, housing and so forth) are extremely important.

58 minutes ago, invictus said:

Nixon and Mao both "needed" each other to contain Soviet Union, which led to the ironic statement by Mao who said that he preferred the Republicans over the Democrats because at least the Republicans are openly against Communism while the Democrats can stab you from the back.

So true. :-)

Except that the USSR didn't need containing. It's obvious in hindsight but even at the time, there was no more evidence for this than there was for Iraq's infamously fictional WMDs. Either the Chinese statesmen of the time lied or (more likely) they were naive and believed Uncle Sam's lies like so many other governments.

Edited October 8, 2020 by commie