Conspiracy Nutcases Mega-Thread

[Lyubov]

1 hour ago, Rilles said:

@Preety_India Im turning up the fun factor

Classic 

Alex Jones was actually funny as fuck like 15 years ago. I think he got a taste for the money and it all went down hill from there. Alex Jones is still an anomaly to me. Part of my mind still thinks he’s acting and he is in on it himself...

[Opo]

33 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Green truth. 

Tell me exactly whats a conspiracy theory about any of those lyrics. 

The part where he says "they are trying to build a prison for you and me."

Most of the statistics is true (few of them are little suspicious to me but I don't care enough to try to debunk them) what is a conspiracy is implying that there are some evil people plotting to put you and me in jail. 

The fucked up part is that the people who are putting minor drug offenders in prisons think they are doing the right thing. 

[Rilles]

Just now, Opo said:

The part where he says "they are trying to build a prison for you and me."

Most of the statistics is true (few of them are little suspicious to me but I don't care enough to try to debunk them) what is a conspiracy is implying that there are some evil people plotting to put you and me in jail. 

The fucked up part is that the people who are putting minor drug offenders in prisons think they are doing the right thing. 

Okay, I see, I would just say thats poetic license, its a song after all.  It adds to the emotional impact to add some paranoia. 

I would definitely not say the PIC is a nutcase conspiracy though. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Persipnei said:

I worked at a lawyer for a while and I have seen judges call lawyers to not use proof in a case because the defendant was his family. I have seen documents forged for a few thousand euro's. Do you think this only happens in the lower levels? No, the higher regions of society are full of this shit.

Corruption obviously is a real problem and I speak out against it.

I have a whole video about corruption and I say that is the #1 problem in government.

I think the problem here is that you hear me denounce "conspiracy theory" and you take that to mean: "no two people ever get together to plan something selfish", which is obviously not what I mean when I denounce conspiracy theories.

[Persipnei]

@Leo Gura Me, and looking at the comments on the YT video, many others felt disrespected with the tone you started. Calling every theory bullshit and every believer a moron (free translation) was not a smart thing to do, because especially now, with the who Covid situation, there are a lot of strange things happening, propaganda and censorship going strong...

My first reaction was disappointment, because this is very real for a lot of people and you condescending them will make a lot of them shun your channel forever. Which is a shame, because most of your work is of excellent quality and objectiveness.

I did get the message of the video, that in the end, it is all maya and diversion. I follow you in that, but as a non enlightened being, I am still interacting with this world and see it going in a very wrong direction. Since I don't see myself getting enlightened soon, it seems I'll have to live here for a while and I would prefer it to be in relative freedom, not in the disguised authoritarianism that is become stronger decade by decade.
 

[wpw]

Yeah, but where does corruption end, and conspiracy start?  

 

Lobbying exists, do we know the full extent of it? No we don't. 

Corruption in large industries,  the media or big companies being unethical to maximise shareholder returns, we have some evidence of that for sure.

Do we know the full extent of it? No we don't. 

The danger is when you start saying oh stupid conspiracy theorists even pointing out corruption becomes a "conspiracy theory" it's a great way to shame people into shutting up.   

  

 

 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, wpw said:

Yeah, but where does corruption end, and conspiracy start? 

Lobbying exists, do we know the full extent of it? No we don't. 

Corruption in large industries,  the media or big companies being unethical to maximise shareholder returns, we have some evidence of that for sure.

Do we know the full extent of it? No we don't. 

The danger is when you start saying oh stupid conspiracy theorists even pointing out corruption becomes a "conspiracy theory" it's a great way to shame people into shutting up.  

Of course there will never be any such clear lines. Our knowledge is highly limited and fallible.

But the things you talk about are addressed with systems thinking, journalism, education, and academic research.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Persipnei said:

@Leo Gura Me, and looking at the comments on the YT video, many others felt disrespected with the tone you started.

My first reaction was disappointment, because this is very real for a lot of people and you condescending them will make a lot of them shun your channel forever. Which is a shame, because most of your work is of excellent quality and objectiveness.

I admit I was very provocative. Similar to my Libertarianism video. Yeah, it pisses some people off. I should soften up my approach in the future. I am still learning what upsets people because intellectual stuff doesn't upset me so it's hard for me to know ahead of time which ideas will offend people.

7 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

It didn’t seem like a good idea to me tbh. Why waste more time and energy on red herrings like this. I think that should be the final word on conspiracy theories: That it is just a fucking distraction and waste of time. 

You make a great point. But let's just see a bit more how this thread evolves. If it gets too distracting and toxic, we'll close it.

[No Self]

There is a growing need to have open dialogue on this topic because 'conspiracy nutcases' are going mainstream and entering into politics around the world. Because their followers are motivated primarily by wanting a sense of brotherhood or a feeling of ego gratification (moral high ground over Deep State and exclusive 'insights' into the state of the world), they are divorced from reality.

Given that conspiracy is defined as a group of people working together to do something evil such as spreading misinformation, conspiracy theorists themselves meet this definition. The following video includes some examples of politicians entering the mainstream whose world views are divorced from reality due to conspiracy theorism. We cannot address actual issues until nutcases are not running the asylum.

 

 

[Persipnei]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Of course there will never be any such clear lines. Our knowledge is highly limited and fallible.

But the things you talk about are addressed with systems thinking, journalism, education, and academic research.

Isn't that the whole problem? Education makes you think as a loan slave, media makes you stupid and then the corruption/lobby/conspirators have free reign.

There is only a small portion of the population that is able to transcend that manipulation.

[Rilles]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I admit I was very provocative. Similar to my Libertarianism video. Yeah, it pisses some people off. I should soften up by approach in the future.

I dont think you should, being provocative is good, it makes people feel unwanted emotions. Some people need to hear how silly they sound.

[wpw]

@Leo Gura I was in a very powerful position and I was "providing for my family" or just doing business in a free society (what other people might call corruption). 

Depending on my personality I would sweep that dirty business under the rug, sue people, shame and hide as much of it as possible. 

That's what's happening now, naked monkey's playing power games, if I knew the lesser monkey would complain, of course I am going to keep them in the dark. 

Rack up the bananas and then pass them to your offspring.  Anyone else would do it.  

Apart from the rare ape who thinks of the group. 

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Persipnei said:

Isn't that the whole problem? Education makes you think as a loan slave, media makes you stupid and then the corruption/lobby/conspirators have free reign.

Proper, quality education -- while admittedly a rare thing -- does not make you a slave. It teaches you how to learn and think for yourself and how to have high epistemic standards.

Media makes you stupid if you don't use it properly by not diversifying your sources and not reading books.

Corruption is certainly a problem.

Just now, Persipnei said:

There is only a small portion of the population that is able to transcend that manipulation.

Yes. Which is what we're trying to correct. Via education and public policy.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, wpw said:

Depending on my personality I would sweep that dirty business under the rug, sue people, shame and hide as much of it as possible. 

That's what's happening now, naked monkey's playing power games, if I knew the lesser monkey would complain, of course I am going to keep them in the dark.

Sure. That's selfishness and survival and devilry in action. It's been that way since the dawn of civilization. It is important to study and understand how selfishness and survival and devilry work.

But there is no cabal of evil elites running the world.

[Rasheed]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Proper, quality education -- while admittedly a rare thing -- does not make you a slave. It teaches you how to learn and think for yourself and how to have high epistemic standards.

Media makes you stupid if you don't use it properly by not diversifying your sources and not reading books.

Corruption is certainly a problem.

Yes. Which is what we're trying to correct. Via education and public policy.

Proper quality education? Education system is a joke. Just because some dude knows stupid math which is not practical, stupid history text books, and other textbooks which by time he completes his education is out dated, he will not fall into conspiracy theories????

It's not about education. It's about SELF-HELP/PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT. This will save people from conspiracy theories and slavery. Not monkey educational system, with teachers who are stuck at their job. 

[Parththakkar12]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course there will never be any such clear lines. Our knowledge is highly limited and fallible.

But the things you talk about are addressed with systems thinking, journalism, education, and academic research.

What if the standards for 'proof' and 'objectivity' are determined by the mainstream? Who decides those standards? You've said yourself that proof is a circular concept and that there is no such thing as objectivity. Who stands to benefit from having these specific standards?

You may say 'I'd believe the mainstream definition of objectivity any day over some conspiracy theorist's definition of objectivity.' Oh yeah? Why is that? Is it because you were taught that there is such a thing as objectivity?

There is a reason conspiracy theorists don't properly investigate them and follow mainstream standards of proof and rigor. It's because those also come into question! They aren't creating an opposing definition of truth and objectivity, they're transcending their attachment to objectivity and proof.

[No Self]

The most frustrating aspect of this situation is that the worst corruption happens quite openly and is not hidden in any way. Take the fossil fuel lobby and its involvement in politics, such that most of the biggest governments in the world are openly opposed to climate change science.

Here in Australia, the right's narrative went from, "there is no climate change" to "there is climate change, but it is not man made" to "it is man made, but Australia is a small country and makes no difference" to "we are taking action" (when they are not). This is the government that has been in power all along, and is not going anywhere soon. All in line with fossil fuel interests.

The conspiracy nutcase phenomenon involves blaming outgroups like reptilian baby-eaters for all the world's problems, and will be the first to deny climate change. It is based on the fantasy of having no personal responsibility, and being able to exclude inconvenient facts in order to have a comfortable internal narrative of life. Divorcing from reality is the opposite of what is needed; this is not a case of open-minded individuals breaking free of a mainstream mental prison. 

At best, conspiracy theorists are jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Edited October 5, 2020 by No Self

[Persipnei]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I admit I was very provocative. Similar to my Libertarianism video. Yeah, it pisses some people off. I should soften up my approach in the future. I am still learning what upsets people because intellectual stuff doesn't upset me so it's hard for me to know ahead of time which ideas will offend people.

I was talking from personal experience. It's easy to shun people away with one sentence even if the other 99 sentences are spot on. I have done it a lot before I learned this lesson. If you had pronounced those provocations after you made the real point, or even better, not at all, a lot of people would realize that it doesn't even matter if conspiracies exist or not. Oh man, I don't want to judge. Let's call it a tip :-)

[Leo Gura]

50 minutes ago, Rasheed said:

Proper quality education? Education system is a joke. Just because some dude knows stupid math which is not practical, stupid history text books, and other textbooks which by time he completes his education is out dated, he will not fall into conspiracy theories????

It's not about education. It's about SELF-HELP/PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT. This will save people from conspiracy theories and slavery. Not monkey educational system, with teachers who are stuck at their job. 

Don't poo-poo quality education. All of my work with Actualized.org is grounded in a solid classic education. I wouldn't be here otherwise.

There is a good reason why Trump supporters are mostly white people with no college education. And why they are so prone to toxic conspiracy theories. And why the right-wing is so critical of universities. 2/3rds of Americans have no college education. If 50% of Americans had a college education, Trump would never have gotten elected. Quality classic education is hugely important. It teaches people basic academic rigor which cut down conspiracy thinking a lot.

Universities are somewhat corrupt, but overall they are a net positive force in society. We need more, not less. And also better.

50 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

What if the standards for 'proof' and 'objectivity' are determined by the mainstream? Who decides those standards? You've said yourself that proof is a circular concept and that there is no such thing as objectivity. Who stands to benefit from having these specific standards?

Yes, of course. All standards are relative and self-biased. I am not saying to blindly trust the mainstream. Pretty much all mainstream narratives are collective illusions.

Quote

There is a reason conspiracy theorists don't properly investigate them and follow mainstream standards of proof and rigor. It's because those also come into question! They aren't creating an opposing definition of truth and objectivity, they're transcending their attachment to objectivity and proof.

Yes, but this is a very dangerous thing. It's like giving a child a loaded handgun to play with. In the hands of a trained expert who knows what he's doing, a loaded gun is a useful tool. But in the hands of a moron, it's very dangerous and he will more than likely end up shooting himself.

A Trumpist's definition of truth is inferior to that of the mainstream news. The mainstream news is biased, but at least they have serious journalists with some integrity working for them. The Trump cult just makes up bullshit all day long and treats it as truth.

42 minutes ago, Persipnei said:

I was talking from personal experience. It's easy to shun people away with one sentence even if the other 99 sentences are spot on.

I agree.

[Joel3102]

I just came across this on my Twitter feed, cool graphic