Whatever happened to having a loving healing relationship...with yourself!

[Thestarguitarist14]

I have just noticed a lot of thirsty guys here.  I suppose that is the norm.  But let me ask you guys who are dying to have sex dying for a girlfriend:

 

What do you think it will give you?

 

Unconditional love?  Nope.  First off, unconditional love is a state of being, not a state of mind.  Secondly, there is no one on this earth who is constantly emanating unconditional love.  If you were, then you would have no problems.  And I have never met anyone who does not have e a problem.  Even hardcore Buddhist monks have problems.

Fulfillment?  I remember when I was a pick up artist for a few years.  A year and a half of those were in Los Angeles.  While it was not during the heyday of pick up, I was able to go out to different venues in Hollywood, Venice, Santa Monica and Downtown L.A and have a few one night stands.  If I had not watched Leo’s rant on pick up artists I would have probably continued on that path.  
 

I look back now and those days make me few empty.  Even my post pick up days pre pandemic when I was still using those skills.  Yeah, I met some cool, fun women.  But all I was looking for was sex.  There were women who wanted a relationship with me, but I was so closed off to anything exclusive.  In a way that is good as I got to learn more.  But all the chasing amounted to not much outside of social skills.

A life partner?  You probably would act in a way where if you got her into a relationship, she would leave you.  

 

Security?  You are barking up the wrong tree.

 

Happiness?  That’s like looking for drugs to give you happiness.  No one can make you happy.

 

A spiritual og once told me how self love used to be considered a mystical experience.  What happened to that?  Now all I see are a ton of co dependent men and women who cannot stand to be alone.

 

I am not saying that you cannot be in a relationship.  All I am saying is that sex and a relationships will not solve any of your issues.  It will only put a mask over your feelings of lack.  Your lack of self love.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Thestarguitarist14

[No Self]

This is largely true. Sometimes there are practical reasons for relationships, and sometimes there can be very deep bonds between two people. Some even argue that people are healthiest in relationships from a biological standpoint. Many birds form pair bonds for life in a similar way (though are not necessarily sexually monogamous). But I only make these points to be a devil's advocate.

On the topic of self-love, the commentary that resonates with me the most comes from the Power of Now. Eckhart says that loving one's self (or hating one's self, or being proud of one's self, etc.) involves an unnecessary subject-object duality. Being one's Self is enough. I love this because otherwise there's an idea that the Self is not good enough and something internal needs to 'love' it. This is no doubt better than trying to get something external to love it, like another person, but still feels like needless noise and strain.

The line, "Be still and know that I am God" comes to mind right now.

Peace!

[Thestarguitarist14]

23 minutes ago, No Self said:

This is largely true. Sometimes there are practical reasons for relationships, and sometimes there can be very deep bonds between two people. Some even argue that people are healthiest in relationships from a biological standpoint. Many birds form pair bonds for life in a similar way (though are not necessarily sexually monogamous). But I only make these points to be a devil's advocate.

On the topic of self-love, the commentary that resonates with me the most comes from the Power of Now. Eckhart says that loving one's self (or hating one's self, or being proud of one's self, etc.) involves an unnecessary subject-object duality. Being one's Self is enough. I love this because otherwise there's an idea that the Self is not good enough and something internal needs to 'love' it. This is no doubt better than trying to get something external to love it, like another person, but still feels like needless noise and strain.

The line, "Be still and know that I am God" comes to mind right now.

Peace!

Fair points.  But I would also say that you can have a strong bond with a lot of people.  Though I get the vibe that most guys here are only looking for sex and don’t even want the strong bond.  
 

I really like how Eric Fromm talks about about self love in his book “the art of love.”  Teal Swan’s definition of self love.  She says people who love themselves do things that feel good.  Simple enough right?  
 

I know that all this chasing after sex and relationships does not feel good.

[No Self]

33 minutes ago, Thestarguitarist14 said:

 Teal Swan’s definition of self love.  She says people who love themselves do things that feel good.  Simple enough right?  
 

I know that all this chasing after sex and relationships does not feel good.

We're on the same page. Sometimes words like 'love' and 'self' can be used in slightly different ways so it can appear that there is something to debate.

But surely everyone does things that feel good? That includes people with dysfunction relationships with themselves who chase after sexual thrills? 

[Bando]

@Thestarguitarist14 I see where your coming from but you've gotta understand that your saying this because you've spent time getting good with women, how could you expect a guy who has never gotten laid or is not good with women to believe, "I can be in a healthy loving relationship with myself." I believe every guy should go into a healthy form of pick until they feel confident in their ability to attract a partner, then focus on other things.

[Thestarguitarist14]

19 minutes ago, No Self said:

We're on the same page. Sometimes words like 'love' and 'self' can be used in slightly different ways so it can appear that there is something to debate.

But surely everyone does things that feel good? That includes people with dysfunction relationships with themselves who chase after sexual thrills? 

I would say that everyone dies things because they think they will feel good.  That is usually their ego talking.  Like when I get a sexual urge nowadays, I recognize that it is my ego that desires to fulfill it.  
 

20 minutes ago, Bando said:

@Thestarguitarist14 I see where your coming from but you've gotta understand that your saying this because you've spent time getting good with women, how could you expect a guy who has never gotten laid or is not good with women to believe, "I can be in a healthy loving relationship with myself." I believe every guy should go into a healthy form of pick until they feel confident in their ability to attract a partner, then focus on other things.

True.  But you can also look at it this way: self love is much more attractive than self loathing.  Again, I am not saying to not go after sex and relationships.  But to put it in perspective.  I wish I had done that.  I probably would have had more fun when I was a pick up artist instead putting a ton of pressure on myself and feeling like shit if things did not go my way.  I look back and the times that I was successful were times when I was not chasing but was comfortable with myself and just putting myself out there.  Funny, sometimes I would just tell myself “this is a practice night” and something cool would happen.

[Preety_India]

 

I think that this is so deeply complex that it is just impossible to have a one size fits all solution to this problem. 

Relationships are skewed against humans. Society is created in such a way that expectations in relationships are damn high. 

I have tried loving myself. But sometimes it feels very fake and superficial to be honest, like I'm forcing myself to love myself. Loving the self is a difficult process because even if you did all the things you liked in a day, in the end you come up empty, to an empty room, to an empty bed. That feeling is not such a beautiful one. 

But when someone else loves me I feel very nice. I feel very wanted and cared and loved. It's a different feeling, like a cat jumping to get some affection from you. 

The problem is no matter how much you love yourself, the feeling of affection cannot come from self, but needs another person to give you that. 

If you sat in a restaurant alone, you can still enjoy the food and the ambience but it is completely different from sitting and talking and laughing with someone. Our brains are so hard-wired for connections and social love and acceptance, it is impossible to feel completely happy alone. Maybe you can enjoy your own company for some time, but you will get bored of all the self love. 

There is a certain beauty to having a strong bond. A certain affection that cannot be reproduced by the self. 

I have been in dysfunctional relationships, but even if they were dysfunctional, the moments where I felt a strong bond, were the healthiest moments of my life. That's why leaving such relationships was so hard, because something was always better than nothing. 

Like the other user pointed out that we are biologically healthiest when we are in relationships. I have experienced this myself. My quality of sleep is the best when I'm sleeping with a partner. My mental and physical health is better when I'm with a lover, unless it's a bad or toxic relationship, then it's the opposite,the health declines in that case. 

In my opinion, human bonding is beyond human comprehension and extremely complex,  and that we have committed a huge error by setting up society the way we have done. We have set up society so that both gender and collective society has very high expectations out of relationships. And monogamy, although important while raising kids and family structure is actually a bit of a farce. 

I think as humans we are polygamous but I'm not sure if this is totally true, just speculating it because some people might not agree. I think monogamous relationships are very difficult, especially for the male gender and sometimes for women as well, if you really look at any attachment, it is also like sex, so even looking for emotional attachment is similar to looking for sex, it's only that culture and religion has demonized sex so much that we look at the whole phenomenon of looking for sex in a negative way, of course playing with someone's emotions for sex is not a good idea, but men and women can be allowed to be freely sexual with each other without all the barriers and boundaries and insecurities raises around sex. This will significantly reduce the thirsty-Ness that men and women experience.. 

Also society has a big role to play here. I think that tribalism is steadily declining in modern  society making it more difficult to stay single and happy. We don't have a loving caring society. 

Like they say it takes an entire village to raise a child. We don't have that kind of society. We don't get enough love from all the people, the social love that should naturally come for all people, with or without social skills, so people naturally tend to feel lonelier in a tightly individualistic society which creates a need for deeper bonds and all this thirty-ness for emotional bonding and sexual affection. I think in a more loving and supportive society, single people wouldn't end up feeling abandoned or lonely and won't be overly desperate for relationships. In turn they will be more likely to scout for healthy relationships where such needs will be met. And even if they didn't have their needs met, no regret, they will go back to their society or community to get the missing love. 

 

 

[Thestarguitarist14]

8 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

I think that this is so deeply complex that it is just impossible to have a one size fits all solution to this problem. 

Relationships are skewed against humans. Society is created in such a way that expectations in relationships are damn high. 

I have tried loving myself. But sometimes it feels very fake and superficial to be honest, like I'm forcing myself to love myself. Loving the self is a difficult process because even if you did all the things you liked in a day, in the end you come up empty, to an empty room, to an empty bed. That feeling is not such a beautiful one. 

But when someone else loves me I feel very nice. I feel very wanted and cared and loved. It's a different feeling, like a cat jumping to get some affection from you. 

The problem is no matter how much you love yourself, the feeling of affection cannot come from self, but needs another person to give you that. 

If you sat in a restaurant alone, you can still enjoy the food and the ambience but it is completely different from sitting and talking and laughing with someone. Our brains are so hard-wired for connections and social love and acceptance, it is impossible to feel completely happy alone. Maybe you can enjoy your own company for some time, but you will get bored of all the self love. 

There is a certain beauty to having a strong bond. A certain affection that cannot be reproduced by the self. 

I have been in dysfunctional relationships, but even if they were dysfunctional, the moments where I felt a strong bond, were the healthiest moments of my life. That's why leaving such relationships was so hard, because something was always better than nothing. 

Like the other user pointed out that we are biologically healthiest when we are in relationships. I have experienced this myself. My quality of sleep is the best when I'm sleeping with a partner. My mental and physical health is better when I'm with a lover, unless it's a bad or toxic relationship, then it's the opposite,the health declines in that case. 

In my opinion, human bonding is beyond human comprehension and extremely complex,  and that we have committed a huge error by setting up society the way we have done. We have set up society so that both gender and collective society has very high expectations out of relationships. And monogamy, although important while raising kids and family structure is actually a bit of a farce. 

I think as humans we are polygamous but I'm not sure if this is totally true, just speculating it because some people might not agree. I think monogamous relationships are very difficult, especially for the male gender and sometimes for women as well, if you really look at any attachment, it is also like sex, so even looking for emotional attachment is similar to looking for sex, it's only that culture and religion has demonized sex so much that we look at the whole phenomenon of looking for sex in a negative way, of course playing with someone's emotions for sex is not a good idea, but men and women can be allowed to be freely sexual with each other without all the barriers and boundaries and insecurities raises around sex. This will significantly reduce the thirsty-Ness that men and women experience.. 

Also society has a big role to play here. I think that tribalism is steadily declining in modern  society making it more difficult to stay single and happy. We don't have a loving caring society. 

Like they say it takes an entire village to raise a child. We don't have that kind of society. We don't get enough love from all the people, the social love that should naturally come for all people, with or without social skills, so people naturally tend to feel lonelier in a tightly individualistic society which creates a need for deeper bonds and all this thirty-ness for emotional bonding and sexual affection. I think in a more loving and supportive society, single people wouldn't end up feeling abandoned or lonely and won't be overly desperate for relationships. In turn they will be more likely to scout for healthy relationships where such needs will be met. And even if they didn't have their needs met, no regret, they will go back to their society or community to get the missing love. 

 

 

You said some interesting things.

 

You say that you try to live yourself, but it feels fake.  The reason that it feels fake is because you have not dealt with all your issues.  Self love is not all about rainbows and sunshine.  It is about taking care of yourself and have self acceptance and self trust.  When you can achieve that, you will be authentic.

 

Naturally if you can’t live yourself then someone loving you will feel good.  But what happens when that person stops loving you?  You are worse off than before.  Self love is never boring if you are doing it right.

 

Your view on dysfunctional relationships is telling.  I feel like a lot of people feel that way and that is why a lot of people are stuck.  It is way worse to be in a dysfunctional relationship than to be alone.  
 

Funny, I sleep better alone haha.

 

Society is built on relationships.  No relationships, no society.  That is also why our society is so messed up.  We have too many bad relationships going on.

 

Monogamy is just a belief system that fits society’s narrative.  The only time that things changed were in the 60s and the hippie movement.  But once Charles Manson started killing people that ended things real quick.  If that had not happened who knows?  We’re due for another counterculture movement.

 Technology has put us more and more at a distance from each other.  People ghost one another, people text instead of call, people don’t want to leave their homes, people just sit and watch tv believing that they will be happy.  Things are pathetic nowadays.

[Preety_India]

11 minutes ago, Thestarguitarist14 said:

Naturally if you can’t live yourself then someone loving you will feel good.  But what happens when that person stops loving you?  You are worse off than before.  Self love is never boring if you are doing it right.

 

Your view on dysfunctional relationships is telling.  I feel like a lot of people feel that way and that is why a lot of people are stuck.  It is way worse to be in a dysfunctional relationship than to be alone.  
 

Funny, I sleep better alone haha.

 

From my perspective, I feel self love is too difficult. I'm not sure how I would feel if I resolved all of my inner issues, maybe much healthier? 

I cannot even imagine the thought of being alone. 

Starting from my first crush, I was never alone or without "in a relationship" even for a month. For me it was relationship after relationship non stop, because I have such a romantic heart (Pisces indeed). 

So for me loneliness and lack of romance is such an alien thing. 

But I have seen one change in myself particularly. And that is, that relationships aren't as important as they once were. Now I don't look at relationships the same way. It's like the hunger is gone. So even if I had to live alone, I think I  might do fine.

I have also realized that dysfunctional relationships aren't worth my time no matter how strong the attachment. 

But still self love looks a far away goal to me, I can't tell you how unnatural it feels. 

So how did you start loving yourself and what did you do to deepen it? 

 

I have always been like a lovesick puppy in relationships. 

 

But now the blinders are off. 

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Preety_India

[No Self]

Lots of good points here.

Plot twist: what if there is no 'self' to love? 

[Thestarguitarist14]

3 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

From my perspective, I feel self love is too difficult. I'm not sure how I would feel if I resolved all of my inner issues, maybe much healthier? 

I cannot even imagine the thought of being alone. 

Starting from my first crush, I was never alone or without "in a relationship" even for a month. For me it was relationship after relationship non stop, because I have such a romantic heart (Pisces indeed). 

So for me loneliness and lack of romance is such an alien thing. 

But I have seen one change in myself particularly. And that is, that relationships aren't as important as they once were. Now I don't look at relationships the same way. It's like the hunger is gone. So even if I had to live alone, I think I  might do fine.

I have also realized that dysfunctional relationships aren't worth my time no matter how strong the attachment. 

But still self love looks a far away goal to me, I can't tell you how unnatural it feels. 

So how did you start loving yourself and what did you do to deepen it? 

 

 

 

 

Anything that is worth while takes effort, including a great relationship. 
 

Dealing with your inner issues will change your whole life.  You will see the world differently and people will see you differently.  That in it of itself is an act of self love.

 

First off, you have to make friends with loneliness.  I have always been a loner and I never really feel lonely (though you can feel lonely around other people) so this was easier for me.  But you have to get to a place where you feel good with your own company,   That you don’t need someone else to fulfill you or make you happy.

I started by doing Teal Sean’s self love challenge.  Which is this: I asked myself, what would someone e who loved themselves do?  For one year.  This alone got me on that journey.  After that different guided meditations, yoga and eft tapping have deepen my love of self.

 

That is not to say that I don’t have the desire to merge.  What it is now is that I realize that this is my ego and return to the present moment.  Mindfulness is a great way to practice self love.

[Preety_India]

 

1 minute ago, Thestarguitarist14 said:

That is not to say that I don’t have the desire to merge.  What it is now is that I realize that this is my ego and return to the present moment.  Mindfulness is a great way to practice self love.

Has this made you more robotic or relinquished the need to get love from someone else. 

 

 

[Proserpina]

9 minutes ago, No Self said:

Lots of good points here.

Plot twist: what if there is no 'self' to love? 

That IS self love. 

[Preety_India]

 

I wish I had found this forum in 2015, five years ago, I would have learned so much about love, relationships and self love. 

 

[Thestarguitarist14]

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

Has this made you more robotic or relinquished the need to get love from someone else. 

 

 

I am able to go inwards first, resolve the issue internally and the it ceases to be a problem externally.  So basically instead of focusing on success, I am focusing on growth.  
 

At this point, I am showing up in the world as someone who does not need someone to fulfill their needs.  I will fulfill my own needs and connect with people who are on my level.

[Thestarguitarist14]

I also want to add that a lot of guys go into pick up with the idea that they are broken.  That they need to be fixed.  That no one can love them for who they are.  If these guys were able to live themselves first, then if they decided to do pick up, they would have an easier time of not seeking women’s approval.  

[Byun Sean]

relationships can help you grow a lot if you mix with the right people. It's not all need fulfilling and distraction.

 

Also why not have both in your life? 

Relationships are a part of life and can be enjoyed as such. Let them bang all the girls they want. As long as it works for them, who cares?

 

I understand where you may be coming from though because at a certain point in my journey, I also held your exact point of view.

Deep down your afraid of depending on someone else because that makes you vulnerable of being hurt. The thought of it probably even makes you unstable. 

You then go about projecting this onto the outside world thinking that you are superior to everyone else because you are so detached and those other needy people are not.

In fact your fantasy I'm willing to bet is becoming so intelligent, wise, amazing, and conscious of a being yourself that you don't have to depend on anyone or anything.

Sound familiar? Keep doing this consciousness work and maybe one day you will realize that the one way those thirsty guys were stronger than you in, is the strength in being vulnerable enough to put their needs in the hands of another.

 

Also. I notice you may have some unresolved shadow material surrounding your own neediness that you are projecting onto other guys which is why seeing them on the forum irritates you. 

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Byun Sean

[Martin123]

14 hours ago, Bando said:

I see where your coming from but you've gotta understand that your saying this because you've spent time getting good with women, how could you expect a guy who has never gotten laid or is not good with women to believe, "I can be in a healthy loving relationship with myself." I believe every guy should go into a healthy form of pick until they feel confident in their ability to attract a partner, then focus on other things.

This is actually just illusion.

The reason why you wanna get good with women is because it would ssubconsciously finally give you validation and the feeling of being liked and approved of, which is all that we want.

But if we base the approval on our social success, we are forgetting that we are mingling with a bunch of insecure people who don't love themselves, therefore even they cannot really validate us. If we do find someone who loves themselves, they will not be into one-night stands most likely, because they're not chasing after validation.

We have to learn how to be our own source of validation, then the desire for validation will fall off and a genuine connection will feel MUCH better, even though we never went through a phase of 'chasing after sex with girls'. Because remember, the sex is just to validate our existence, because we feel unworthy as we are.

[Thestarguitarist14]

3 hours ago, Byun Sean said:

relationships can help you grow a lot if you mix with the right people. It's not all need fulfilling and distraction.

 

Also why not have both in your life? 

Relationships are a part of life and can be enjoyed as such. Let them bang all the girls they want. As long as it works for them, who cares?

 

I understand where you may be coming from though because at a certain point in my journey, I also held your exact point of view.

Deep down your afraid of depending on someone else because that makes you vulnerable of being hurt. The thought of it probably even makes you unstable. 

You then go about projecting this onto the outside world thinking that you are superior to everyone else because you are so detached and those other needy people are not.

In fact your fantasy I'm willing to bet is becoming so intelligent, wise, amazing, and conscious of a being yourself that you don't have to depend on anyone or anything.

Sound familiar? Keep doing this consciousness work and maybe one day you will realize that the one way those thirsty guys were stronger than you in, is the strength in being vulnerable enough to put their needs in the hands of another.

 

Also. I notice you may have some unresolved shadow material surrounding your own neediness that you are projecting onto other guys which is why seeing them on the forum irritates you. 

 

I have already said that I am not against relationships.  In fact, I am not opposed to getting into one.  It’s just that I have dealt with two narcissist back to back.  You know why I did?  It is because I did not love and respect myself enough, particularly the with the first narcissist.  After I saw the same patterns with the second narcissist I shut that down quickly.  

 

I don’t think you are getting what I am saying.

 

It is not the the sex and relationships that are the problem.  It is the wanting approval from women that is the problem.  This is something that I have had to face myself.  Every guy does.  I am not sure if it 100% goes away either. But what I am mature men have discovered is that there is no intrinsic value in sex or relationships (or anything external).  Buddhism says it best, when you meditate more your love for humanity deepens and you see that relationships (just just romantic) bring drama so you steer away from them.

 

Deep down none of that is true haha.  If I met an amazing spiritual woman who was on my level I would settle down.  But I live in L.A and have kissed a lot of frogs.

 

LMAO, thirsty guys have no strength.  They do take a lot of action and have some courage.  But on the inside they are all kinds of messed.  Unhealthy stage orange/achiever stage I can say that because I was one of them.

 

You don’t need to tell me, I have been working on my sexual neediness lately.  I already know what my issues are.  It does not irritate me to see needy men on here.  It makes me realize how pathetic most men are today.  It is sad.  I did not realize how bad it is.  It is because everyone believes the narrative that society has sold us.  That we need a relationship to be happy.  Good thing for me my parents never impressed that on me.  In fact, their toxic relationship did the exact opposite.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Thestarguitarist14

[Thestarguitarist14]

1 hour ago, Martin123 said:

This is actually just illusion.

The reason why you wanna get good with women is because it would ssubconsciously finally give you validation and the feeling of being liked and approved of, which is all that we want.

But if we base the approval on our social success, we are forgetting that we are mingling with a bunch of insecure people who don't love themselves, therefore even they cannot really validate us. If we do find someone who loves themselves, they will not be into one-night stands most likely, because they're not chasing after validation.

We have to learn how to be our own source of validation, then the desire for validation will fall off and a genuine connection will feel MUCH better, even though we never went through a phase of 'chasing after sex with girls'. Because remember, the sex is just to validate our existence, because we feel unworthy as we are.

Exactly.  This is where I was coming from when I did pick up.  I did not feel like I was enough and needed to hook up with women to feel it. Too bad it never made me feel like enough.  Felt good for a day at best.

 

It is funny how we go after plastic people who have nothing going for them.  Bars are beginning to open back up here and I have considered going out to some.  Then I had to ask myself “why? “  I don’t even drink anymore. Most of the people in there will not be vibrating at the same frequency as me.  
 

Funny, when people do that, they see that they should only be looking for people who are a match to them.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Thestarguitarist14