Neither Monism, Nor Duality

[Moksha]

Enlightenment is 1) realizing that you are awareness, and 2) dissolving your desires through the radiance of that awareness. Awakening is the first step toward enlightenment, and the ensuing path is the deepening of that awareness that eventually leads to the end of suffering.

Babies, puppies, and trees are beautiful because of their isness. But I don't consider them to be enlightened, since they are incapable of realization.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Moksha

[Dodo]

54 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Enlightenment is 1) realizing that you are awareness, and 2) dissolving your desires through the radiance of that awareness. Awakening is the first step toward enlightenment, and the ensuing path is the deepening of that awareness that eventually leads to the end of suffering.

Babies, puppies, and trees are beautiful because of their isness. But I don't consider them to be enlightened, since they are incapable of realization.

Sure, I am actually talking about the Isness as enlightenment. I am saying that every-thing is doing its job perfectly. A rock is doing a perfect job at being a rock. It's enlightened. Even though it can be seen that  consciousness is asleep in rocks. A fool is doing a perfect job at being a fool - he is perfectly enlightened. An "enlightened" being is also doing a perfect job at being "enlightened", so he is perfectly enlightened. 

It's a mystery! How can the unenlightened be perfectly enlightened? Well, because everything always is the way it is. Always. There are no mistakes. There is only isness. If it is, it is true. It is enlightened. 

Being a sage/mystic does not equal being enlightened in my books. Either everyone is enlightened or nobody is. There aint no other way! 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Dodo

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Dodo said:

a rock. It's enlightened.

No!

Only YOU can be enlightened. There is only YOU. Nothing else. If YOU do not wake up, nothing is awake.

[Moksha]

11 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Being a sage/mystic does not equal being enlightened in my books. Either everyone is enlightened or nobody is. There aint no other way! 

How can there be a path to enlightenment if everything is already enlightened?

[Dodo]

35 minutes ago, Moksha said:

How can there be a path to enlightenment if everything is already enlightened?

There is no path to enlightenment. The pathless path - begins and ends with Awareness. The rest is just a fruit of being, not a path to Enlightenment. Unless ofcourse that's how you label it, you are welcome to label your journey any way you wish, but I dont think infinite awareness is limited to a linear enlightenment story of the hero's journey that you propose. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Dodo

[Dodo]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No!

Only YOU can be enlightened. There is only YOU. Nothing else. If YOU do not wake up, nothing is awake.

I am doing the inner work. But I am and always have been awake, that is a prerequisite for doing anything, not the goal for me. The very reason I can do inner work is that I am awake.

I am that rock too. I am just as much the rock as I am any other visual/auditory/other perception in my field of awareness. Either I am those or I am not those, in both cases I am just as much the rock as I am the bodymind complex. I just appear to be a character that is other than the rock, but that is all a story. 

So if this Bodymind complex is enlightened or any other bodymind is enlightened, so is the rock and the blade of grass. There is just difference in appearance... All have the same root/isness... 

We are all always awake, the Heart knows that, but the mind will always keep the story up that there is more.  And there is more, but its more important to love what Is deeply rather than to seek to get something else, like an exotic enlightened samadhi state to finally feel complete.

[silene]

Putting it another way, can you find which part of you isn't awake right now? How about your foot, your hand, your blood, your feelings? When I try this experiment I find only my thought which isn't awake. Why? Because it's the only part of me trying not to be itself, but abstractly pointing to something else outside. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by silene

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

There is no path to enlightenment. The pathless path - begins and ends with Awareness. The rest is just a fruit of being, not a path to Enlightenment. Unless ofcourse that's how you label it, you are welcome to label your journey any way you wish, but I dont think infinite awareness is limited to a linear enlightenment story of the hero's journey that you propose. 

Infinite awareness doesn't instantly dissolve our attachments and permanently relieve our suffering. For most humans, dissolving requires time. The path to enlightenment is the practice of presence in our lives. It is the journey from ajnana to jnana to vijnana. 

One who has merely heard of fire has ajnana, ignorance. One who has seen fire has jnana. But one who has actually built a fire and cooked on it has vijnana. (Ramakrishna)

[Dodo]

10 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Infinite awareness doesn't instantly dissolve our attachments and permanently relieve our suffering. For most humans, dissolving requires time. The path to enlightenment is the practice of presence in our lives. It is the journey from ajnana to jnana to vijnana. 

 

 

I agree. What I'm saying is that I am not seeing this dissolving as a path, but as the fruits of being.  Path implies effort, Awareness/being is effortless and this path you are talking about is best described as a growing tree - the fruit comes naturally, without effort. 

ajnana to jnana to vijnana = sure, that's a cool story and its worth experiencing. But it can't be the ultimate. Once the ultimate is realised/noticed one realises it was never not "there". Even in Ajnana the Ultimate was just as much there as when there is vijnana. 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Dodo

[Moksha]

22 minutes ago, Dodo said:

I agree. What I'm saying is that I am not seeing this dissolving as a path, but as the fruits of being.  Path implies effort, Awareness/being is effortless and this path you are talking about is best described as a growing tree - the fruit comes naturally, without effort. 

ajnana to jnana to vijnana = sure, that's a cool story and its worth experiencing. But it can't be the ultimate. Once the ultimate is realised/noticed one realises it was never not "there". Even in Ajnana the Ultimate was just as much there as when there is vijnana.

What I'm referring to as the path of enlightenment is a steadily increasing capacity to be present regardless of our circumstances. Most of us awaken to who we are, and then rather quickly return to unconsciousness for a time until we reawaken. The conditioned mind is relentless in demanding our attention, and even people that have awakened, frequently fall back into identifying with their mind. The practice is to stay conscious more and more, until we are always awake.

The fruits of presence are enjoyed along the path. The more steadily awake we are, the less suffering we will experience. Eventually we reach the point where we are always still, and are permanently free of suffering:

Quote

When meditation is mastered, the mind is unwavering like the flame of a lamp in a windless place. In the still mind, in the depths of meditation, the Self reveals itself. Beholding the Self by means of the Self, an aspirant knows the joy and peace of complete fulfillment. Having attained that abiding joy beyond the senses, revealed in the stilled mind, he never swerves from the eternal truth. He desires nothing else, and cannot be shaken by the heaviest burden of sorrow. (Bhagavad Gita 6:19)

Edited October 4, 2020 by Moksha

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

But I am and always have been awake

Ahahahahahaha.....

[Dodo]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ahahahahahaha.....

Lets put it this way, I have never experienced the absence of awakeness. I am not saying that I have mastered everything there is to master. I am actually a newbie at most things. But I am not a newbie at awakeness, as it is my eternal nature. 

[Shin]

19 minutes ago, Dodo said:

y

Dodo, are you sure you've not constructed a spiritual ego so vast and grandiose that you can't admit yourself that you have no idea what you're talking about ?

As in just parroting knowledge about enlightenment that rings true because you've read so much about it that you can't distinguish the concept of enlightenment to actually really experientially right now being conscious of what you truly are ?

Are you sure you're not deceiving yourself ?

Edited October 5, 2020 by Shin

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Lets put it this way, I have never experienced the absence of awakeness.

You don't even know what awakeness is yet.

[Proserpina]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You don't even know what awakeness is yet.

And you do?

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Proserpina said:

And you do?

Yup

[Shin]

6 minutes ago, Proserpina said:

I imagine people who have experienced awakening don't permanently mess people up psychologically (like my friend Joseph)

That's actually one of the way to do it.

The mind has to break to be able to see through itself.

Either through gentle or fierce love.

Ideally a mix of both ☺

[Proserpina]

38 minutes ago, Shin said:

That's actually one of the way to do it.

The mind has to break to be able to see through itself.

Either through gentle or fierce love.

Ideally a mix of both ☺

Okie.  I guess you have a point.  

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Proserpina said:

I imagine people who have experienced awakening don't permanently mess people up psychologically (like my friend Joseph)

You mean this guy?

https://www.actualized.org/forum/profile/8090-joseph-maynor/

[VeganAwake]

The really interesting thing is 'you' can still sort a speak "play the game"... 'you' just can't really get overly tangled up any longer because the individual that before would take things personally, is now recognized to be unreal/misidentification/illusion (a non-happening). Basically there just isn't a sticky 'me' character there any longer to judge/make a story out of it, or prefer one solid outcome over another. So in that sense psychological suffering essentially falls by the wayside.

It's ordinary and extraordinary freedom for no one!!