The Left's Call to Civility and Playing Politics

[soos_mite_ah]

Is the liberal call to civility a higher consciousness move in the hopes of "if they go low, we go high" or is it an egoic desire to save face and maintain an image of moral superiority. 

I have been binging on Vaush lately and I believe that he has a point on how a principled failure isn't worth anything. In this video he talks about how some progressives don't want to vote for Biden because they believe that Biden is as bad as Trump and how this is a failure to play the political game (especially around the 14 minute mark)

Also in other videos he talks about how democrats wanting to take the high ground and go according to democratic processes is a weakness that the conservatives take advantage of because conservatives don't care about hurting people's feelings or the democratic process as one can see with voter suppression, supporting Trump's fascist tendencies etc. Instead, they are out looking for power which is what the political game boils down to in the end.

I do agree to this to some extent because if you are confronted with a bully who is trying to rip you to shreds, literally or figuratively, coming to them and being like "oh but we can work this out, lets see what kinds of solutions we can come up with" is going to look like weakness to someone who seeks domination rather than peace. Maybe calls to civility would have worked back when Romney or McCain were running but that goes out the window with Trump.  I do believe that Biden should have gone harder on Trump though I empathize his reluctance to do so when you are faced face to face with someone like Trump. However, I also think his more civil way of doing things rather than going in and trying to dominate the debate makes him look more sane next to Trump and  therefore more appealing to moderate viewers so I can see how that can also be a strategy. 

What do yall think? 

[Apparition of Jack]

I feel the same way. I was watching Vaush today and he was upset that the Biden campaign isn't running negative ads while Trump is sick, and to some extent I can see where this is coming from, but at the same time I also think it could pay off by making the Democrats look level-headed and sympathetic, which is something I imagine a lot of Americans are looking for right now. I get the feeling more and more that this election isn't going to be decided by the extremes (extreme right or extreme left) but rather appeals to the center, which is what this strategy seems to be aiming towards.

This is the way I see it - I don't think Biden will win in November, I think the Democrats will win in November, with Biden at their head. Biden is a weak candidate but if the Democrats generate enough good-will (and some divine luck) and keep letting Trump fall on his own sword then there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to take the election. "Playing nice" so to speak may be one way of doing this.

[Leo Gura]

There is no choice in the matter. Higher consciousness leaders will behave in higher consciousness ways.

You can't act like liberal are more developed than conservatives and then blame liberals for not being vicious enough to conservatives.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how consciousness works.

See, when Jesus turns the other cheek, people like Vaush will call him too weak. That's how it looks from an under-developed ego-mind that is attached to survival and winning.

The attachment to winning is what creates evil. That's what needs to recognized.

[soos_mite_ah]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no choice in the matter. Higher consciousness leaders will behave in higher consciousness ways.

You can't act like liberal are more developed than conservatives and then blame liberals for not being vicious enough to conservatives.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how consciousness works.

I completely agree with this.  It explains why liberals aren't as willing to go for the jugular in a debate and start ridiculing their opponent like Trump does for instance. A lot of progressives believe that democrats need to be more vicious and have critiqued them for that. From what I understand, it's not being vicious for the sake of being vicious but being vicious for the sake of everyone's future over the fear of saving face. However, what a lot of progressives don't understand mainly because of a lack of exposure to things like spiral dynamics and how consciousness works, they don't see why democrats are reluctant to use lower consciousness means to appeal to the public compared to republicans and instead see it as "democrats are addicted to losing." It could be that and potentially mix of toxic green as well. 

Another thing that I remember someone saying in a different thread was someone saying something along the lines of "what is considered healthy is contextual" and how what is considered healthy in say the middle ages with a bunch of warlords everywhere is not going to be considered healthy in the modern day. What I'm trying to say is that what is considered constructive in a debate like the one with Trump, isn't going to be constructive in a debate with McCain for instance. Being civil will work in the second instance and is a necessity in order to not look like a lunatic but the same thing can have cons when dealing with Trump where you look like you've been walked all over. Granted what is considered healthy/ constructive isn't always aligned with what is the most conscious since society has to develop on it's own and because healthy/ constructive is reliant on survival. It's also important to draw that distinction and take that into consideration.

You can't go in to the middle ages preaching green values like free love and multiculturalism without dealing with a huge backlash collectively with a side of getting your head chopped off. Even though your ideals are more conscious, society isn't ready for it at that moment therefore it isn't healthy/constructive. Instead that type of backlash could potentially be greater and be negative towards overall growth.  Similarly with a debate like trump, "playing nice" with him, though it is higher consciousness, can lead to more backsliding because no one is there to stand up to him and therefore his rampaging continues, causing more damage. 

Edited October 3, 2020 by soos_mite_ah

[Leo Gura]

Liberals can stand up to conservatives more. They just have to be mindful to not let it get out of hand. You don't want to stoop to their level, yet you also don't want to be a doormat. It's a tricky balancing act.

[Forestluv]

It’s context dependent. Some Dems like Maddow are laundering Trump by literally equating him to a friend that got lung cancer because they were irresponsibly smoking cigarettes.

[Gidiot]

The more and more I think of this, the more that I realize that some leftists are toxic and want to win at all costs, like vaush, and then others care more about decorum and principles and honor, like Biden and your typical democrats, and then you have someone in the middle like an aoc or Bernie who I think does the balancing act really well, they are certainly not a doormat but they also don’t make it vicious like trump. It’s tough to find that balance but I would say a more conscious mind would at least be trying to balance it out

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Gidiot said:

want to win at all costs, like vaush

I don't think Vaush is that bad. He certainly understands healthy limits and he is not one to just irresponsibly call for violence or evil behavior.

[Akemrelax]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think Vaush is that bad. He certainly understands healthy limits and he is not one to just irresponsibly call for violence or evil behavior.

Idk man, he once said right wingers need milkshakes thrown at them, and one time he called black conservatives House ni*****.

[Gidiot]

@Leo Gura fair enough. I misspoke, I guess he just wants to WIN and I can’t blame him the us hasn’t had an organized political left and it’s real power since like the 1920s. But I read his chats and I really don’t like what I see but I guess it’s just par for the course

[Leo Gura]

Yeah, but compare Vaush to something right-wing like this for context:

 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Akemrelax said:

he once said right wingers need milkshakes thrown at them,

I agree that progressives who delight in and condone the throwing of milkshakes are going into toxic Green.

Quote

and one time he called black conservatives House ni*****.

Yeah, that's also ignorant.

Vaush is too edgy sometimes.

[Lyubov]

#TrumpOrDeath

he may end up getting a dead trump before the election

[Gidiot]

@Leo Gura the fringe left seems a lot better than the fringe right. The fringe left might offend you on Twitter or go to a neo nazi rally to punch a nazi or destroy some property, but it’s rare that they kill anyone, where as the fringe right is nearly always just fascism and executions. Not say I’m taking sides but it just seems like one side is a bit more toxic,

vaush is a good guy, I listen to his content and I think he has a rather developed political perspective, but sometimes he can go overboard haha. Would still prefer listening to him over a more centrist David pakman but sometimes the sensationalist edginess has its day as well as the centrism has its day

 

i can’t stand people equivocating Biden and trump like a lot of leftists and I also don’t like people licking Obama’s boots 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Gidiot

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Gidiot said:

David pakman

Pakman is pretty damn progressive. He's just not as dramatic as Vaush.

I think calling Pakman as centrist isn't correct. Pakman is a very reasonable and well-grounded progressive, the kind we need a lot more of. Similar to Bernie. Vaush's style of politics will never fly in this country. But Bernie/Pakman's might.

[Akemrelax]

@Leo Gura You know what the big issue on the right wing is currently? Critical race theory. My past high school teachers, who I respected so much, are so concerned about it. This scares the shit out of white centrist and right leaning people. I honestly don’t know how to talk to “centrists” anymore. It makes me think they know nothing about human nature and politics, and I should ignore everything they say about it. Some of these people are social studies and psychology teachers which makes it all the more worse. 

Where do you pitch someone like Brett Weinstein? I think he and the IDW is the cause of this. He seems disingenuous. 

Oh, did I mention my teacher believes CRT was spread my USSR to infiltrate American society with neo-communism and to destroy the nation. He also shares shady videos on facebook which claim covid is over... two dates before Trump got Covid. 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Akemrelax

[Joel3102]

David Pakman is a progressive but he's not a socialist (he's a social democrat). Vaush is literally an anarchist-socialist so he's significantly more left

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Akemrelax said:

@Leo Gura You know what the big issue on the right wing is currently? Critical race theory. My past high school teachers, who I respected so much, are so concerned about it. This scares the shit out of white centrist and right leaning people. I honestly don’t know how to talk to “centrists” anymore. It makes me think they know nothing about human nature and politics, and I should ignore everything they say about it. Some of these people are social studies and psychology teachers which makes it all the more worse. 

Where do you pitch someone like Brett Weinstein? I think he and the IDW is the cause of this. He seems disingenuous. 

Oh, did I mention my teacher believes CRT was spread my USSR to infiltrate American society with neo-communism and to destroy the nation. He also shares shady videos on facebook which claim covid is over... two dates before Trump got Covid. 

It's hard to fix stupid.

Jordan Peterson has done a lot of damage by spreading the conspiracy of Cultural Marxism.

3 hours ago, Joel3102 said:

David Pakman is a progressive but he's not a socialist (he's a social democrat). Vaush is literally an anarchist-socialist so he's significantly more left

Yeah, I know that. But I bet Pakman and Vaush would agree on 95% of policy.

That full-on anarcho-socialist policy will never happen, so it's a moot point.

[Forestluv]

8 hours ago, Akemrelax said:

Oh, did I mention my teacher believes CRT was spread my USSR to infiltrate American society with neo-communism and to destroy the nation. He also shares shady videos on facebook which claim covid is over... two dates before Trump got Covid. 

The underlying substance of theory is distinct from the name of that theory. For example, someone could make all sorts of ludicrous claims about how certain ethnicities are lesser evolved and closer to apes and say it is part of Darwin’s The Theory of Evolution. Yet simply saying something is part of the Theory of Evolution does not actually make it part of The Theory of Evolution. If we studied the actual theory we would realize that the claim is not part of the Theory of Evolution and in fact the Theory would state the opposit of the claim. 

Similarly with CRT, anyone can say “According to CRT, blah blah, blah”. Yet that doesn’t make it CRT. It is a common way for people to steal credibility from the work of others and elevate themselves. This is commonly seen with people trying to sell crap and say it is supported by science to raise the credibility of their claims. 

[Gidiot]

I stand corrected. Pakman is definitely more of an Elizabeth Warren progressive which is fine, and I like his mature approach but sometimes he comes off like  a  Pete buttigieg  supporter to me. 
 

yea I wouldn’t mind it if the centrists of tomorrow look like pakmans of today. 

I don’t want everyone to be a socialist but I certainly want people in this country to worry about a bit more than money, probably going to need a bunch of fixes but it starts by seeing how much better Biden will do compared to trump
 

Netflix just came out with a great 3 part series on voting “voting explained” and it delves into why democrats have been losing so much, mostly because they have to win by huge margins to win elections because of gerrymandering electoral college etc

Edited October 3, 2020 by Gidiot