Donald Trump has tested positive for COVID-19

[Danioover9000]

@Keyhole

10 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

@Someone here I don't wish him death, I already mentioned that I'm playing devil's advocate.  I wish for an open ended whatever situation is the most beneficial for everyone in the long term.

   You were clearly displaying a wish of negative consequences on his well being, and only on him. And you justified this for the American people. First off, are you in America even? You're clearly triggered by him on some issue that's directly to you.

   Be careful, because this obsessive intent for his downfall will one day swing back at you.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Danioover9000

[Willie]

16 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

That would be a form of retributive justice. After Larry Nassar got busted I noticed a range of retributive justice sentiment. Some people wanted him to pay for his crimes by serving time in prison. Others hoped and fantasized that he would be abused and suffer in prison. One person even described graphic images of how other prisoners should abuse him. In a way, that is proportional since Nassar inflicted abuse and suffering onto others. At a healthy Blue level, there is serving a prison sentence. Throw in some Red and we get into an “eye for an eye” justice served mentality.

Utilitarian justice would have a very different perspective. This is focused on rehabilitating criminals so they can return to society as contributing members. Yet it seems very unlikely that Trump can be rehabilitated. This itself is a relative view, many believe Trump is a hero the way he is.

From the perspective that Trump is a criminal, in what form will there be justice? He has an impeachment on his record, yet that is merely a wrist slap. Is losing an election ‘justice’ for crimes? I’d say that is a consequence, not justice. Will Trump ever be tried in court and serve a prison sentence? I’d say unlikely. Is Trump’s karmic discomfort in living life as a narcissist sufficient justice? I’d imagine most people would say no. . . So this brings us back to the virus. Many people see the virus as a form of justice that Trump cannot escape - yet he is trying to do so with the best medical doctors and science. In this framing, it would be similar to Trump facing a trial for his crimes and his team of lawyers (doctors) are trying to use legal arguments (anti-viral treatment) to save him. Rooting for the prosecuting attorney’s and a life-long prison sentence (or death sentence) would be like rooting for the virus. From this perspective, the virus within Trump is the good guy of justice - the only chance for Trump to face justice. 

Just one perspective of many. It’s amazing how many perspectives are flying around right now. It’s like a playground for minds that can perspective jump. 

Thinking outside the self!

[Danioover9000]

@Forestluv

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I naturally resonate with a similar empathic state. From a simple view, one might ask “Why aren’t you empathetic to Trump?”. Yet for most empaths, it’s much easier to experience empathy for those that are vulnerable, marginalized, stigmatized and abused than it is to experience empathy for someone who has power and uses their power to abuse those that are vulnerable. 

It’s natural for me to empathetically relate to the victims of Trump’s abuse. Empathetically relating to Trump himself takes work. 

Those that are immersed in intellectually analyzing the situation will not understand empathic dynamics. Rationalists will say things like “You are getting too emotional and not looking at this rationally”. It’s like speaking two different languages. 

   This is a similar dynamic in me as well. After doing some spiritual practices, I became more sensitive and empathic to the marginalized and the vulnerable. However, I also developed empathy for the perpetrators and the powerful on the other end of this cycle. I've almost found myself, after reading some stories and artwork, sometimes I want the villain to not be killed off cheaply, or to escape and live out the rest of their days elsewhere. Like the antagonists acted as a vehicle for t he unfolding of the story. Without them, there's little energy to push the story forward.

[Someone here]

17 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

Btw he did torture my mother she happened to phone me this morning saying this was the first night she has slept with some sense of positive certainty in years. ???

Uh oh.. Seems like your mother has the same issue.. Why is your mother happy for his illness as well?  Don't tell me he tortured your grandma? Lol 

Joke. 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Someone here

[mandyjw]

9 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Those that are immersed in intellectually analyzing the situation will not understand empathic dynamics. It’s like speaking two different languages. 

A trick to loving Trump (or oneself) is in the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes, I think. Calvin is a selfish devil, and Hobbes is his imaginary companion who is wise and knows better but loves him anyway. In the strip Hobbes' character only exists in Calvin's imagination. And Calvin and Hobbes only exist in our imagination. Similarly, Trump and oneself only exist in one's own imagination. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Keyhole

2 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

@Danioover9000 This is exactly what I wanted to weed out.  Note how in your previous post you assume what I know and feel the need to school me on it.

I knew what I was doing and I made sure that post was well seen.  Of course I think that a negative outcome for Trump would be the best option, but I'm much less involved or obsessed with politics than you're thinking I am.  I rarely ever follow it, nor does Trump trigger me.  His actions however, affect my life and the lives of those around me and I care about them more.

I choose them over his well being.  Any day of the week.

   Weed out what? We're not talking about kinder gardening and weeding out some weeds. We're talking about how you're wishing ill will on Trump, a human being like you, you're other reflection, whilst the justifications for this helps you maintain a separate sense of you from him. Notice that dynamic. While you have empathy and compassion for you and those you know on your side, why not work on empathy for Trump and his following? Remember, they are you too. You can still do your little routine a day, or change a little bit, but the internal change is extremely important because you might as well wish yourself harm whilst thinking you wishing harm to another person isn't gonna hurt you. It will hurt you, sooner or later, in this life or the next.

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I would say try to really look at the root issue. What is actually behind you wishing Trump death?   Get over it "for betterment of America" nonsense.. .. What is actually the subconscious motive behind that?   You will find that it has something to do with YOU and not at all with Trump or America or any of that bullshit.   He can lose the election. But there is no justification to wish him death. It's not like he tortured your mother or something.  Hate and unjustified sadism have their place in the human psychology. 

These comments are meant to be impersonal and not directed at any one person. 

This is a rational, logical perspective. This has value and is a partial truth. Yet one cannot see and understand the bigger picture of locked into this perspective. It is like the analogy of the blind men and the elephant. The man feeling the tail thinks the elephant is a rope and the man feeling the leg thinks the elephant is a pillar. Both have a partially true perspective, yet if they stay contracted within that perspective and debate whose part is actually the elephant, they will not be able to expand and gain broader understanding of the elephant. In SD theory, this would be a Tier 1 mindset. 

A Tier 2 mindset would realize that they are missing something and get curious. The man feeling the tail might think “What a minute, maybe I’m missing something”. Then the mind would get curious and want to explore other parts of the elephant. Yet this would involve letting go of the tail and exploring other parts (yet this does not mean the tail is “wrong” - it is still a part of the elephant). An orange level mind would want to either dissect the tail into smaller parts to understand the elephant or debate that the tail is the elephant. A yellow mind goes off into exploratory mode. Examples of such Tier 2 minds would be Gregory Bateson and Richard Feynman. 

In this metaphor, we could say that the tail of the elephant is rational reasoning of the situation and the leg of the tail is empathic / experiential understanding. Both are parts of the holistic elephant and both the tail and leg and inter-connected as rational thinking and empathic knowing are inter-connected. Yet a mind immersed in one part will not even be aware of other parts. The first step is to become aware that there are many parts that make up the elephant. Then the mind will create separate categories of parts. The next step is to see that all the categories are inter-connected. Bateson describes this beautifully in the Ecology of Mind documentary. 

 

[Gesundheit]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not accepting memeing and trolling is also a lack of love. But also, it is Love, since Love accepts even rejection of rejection.

People here reject Trump because he rejects others. You reject their rejection of Trump's rejection. And I accept your rejection of their rejection of Trump's rejection. Although I could reject your rejection of their rejection of Trump's rejection. And God accepts it all. And that is Infinite Love.

Oh, Leo ??‍♂️

[mandyjw]

1 minute ago, Keyhole said:

@Forestluv That's pretty much what it is. It's hard to have empathy for a president who has caused so much damage to other people's lives.  I've had discussions in the past where I took the time to empathize with his personality disorder but the fact is, I think it would be a better outcome if he was no longer in office.

It's hard to have empathy for a person who pays taxes to a government that ever dropped an atomic bomb on a city and still has means of doing so. This all ends up flying back in one's own face. It's really hard not to have empathy for others. 

[Someone here]

@Forestluv

Thanks. Makes sense. 

and I'm trying to understand her perspective. But the problem is she didn't provide any.  One can hardly claim that he genuinely hates someone or wish him death if that person didn't cause direct harm to oneself.  So that's why I claim her wishing him harm has something related to some kind of lack or repressed anger inside of her. 

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Forestluv

   This is a similar dynamic in me as well. After doing some spiritual practices, I became more sensitive and empathic to the marginalized and the vulnerable. However, I also developed empathy for the perpetrators and the powerful on the other end of this cycle. I've almost found myself, after reading some stories and artwork, sometimes I want the villain to not be killed off cheaply, or to escape and live out the rest of their days elsewhere. Like the antagonists acted as a vehicle for t he unfolding of the story. Without them, there's little energy to push the story forward.

Just some ideas floating around: 

We each have our own resonance for ‘knowing’ certain parts of holistic ISness. Each person has their own natural abilities. I have a natural ability to empathically relate to those that are marginalized, stigmatized and abused. It takes no spiritual work for me. If I’m around someone that has suffered / been stigmatized with PTSD, schizophrenia, placed in solitary confinement, has been force-fed in prison, domestically abused etc. - I can naturally enter that realm. Part of it is imagining what it’s like, another part is empathically, intuitively knowing. A kind of ‘getting’ it. It comes easy to empaths. Normies have some capacity for empathic understanding, yet it takes work to get to the deeper levels. Narcissists lack capacity of empathy. There is a spectrum of empathic ability. 

Being able to empathically / intuitively relate to a villain, such as a sociopath harming others is like another dialect of empathy. Some people can speak one language fluently, other people can speak both language -  yet only semi-fluently. A trick of the mind would be for someone to think that they speak an empathic language fluently, when they are only semi-fluent. 

[zeroISinfinity]

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

I'd be okay with being Trump once rather than a covid victim thousands of times over.

It  seemsto me that you just don't know to pick correctly. 

[mandyjw]

1 minute ago, Keyhole said:

True Mandy.  If I were in a country that had been brutalized by America I would have a hard time liking this country.

Thinking of a country that actually is so fluid, complex and changing as we speak, no concept we can have it of it is anything short of completely ridiculous. And that lesson applies to individuals also. You can't conceptualize them because everything you conceptualize is dead and past. Don't hafta wait for anyone to die or get voted out of office cause the concept is all there is, and it can be dropped. Even if you still hold on to it, that doesn't make it real. So it just doesn't make any sense to suffer because there's a President you don't like, vote, campaign, yell, scream, swear, whatever, but you don't have to suffer for it. Don't use people and circumstances you have no control over to perpetuate feeling bad. Just reach for feeling better. Strangely enough that's how real change is made anyway.  

[Forestluv]

39 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Forestluv

and I'm trying to understand her perspective. But the problem is she didn't provide any.  One can hardly claim that he genuinely hates someone or wish him death if that person didn't cause direct harm to oneself.  So that's why I claim her wishing him harm has something related to some kind of lack or repressed anger inside of her. 

“No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical.”   — Niels Bohr

This is the ability of an empath. There is a form of ‘knowing’ or ‘relating’ without being a direct victim of the abuse. At a surface level of empathy, one is restricted within their own experiential life history. For example, if someone lost their spouse to covid and never got to say goodbye and ‘I love you’ due to covid isolation - they would have empathically relate to anyone that experienced the same event - because they know what it’s like. This is a normal level of empathy - it is restricted to one’s self domain of experience. Yet it goes much much deeper and broader than this.

Consider rational thinking, logic and abstraction. Your mind has a natural aptitude for this. I imagine it’s so natural that it may seem normal to you. And I bet you can clearly see when someone is at a surface level of logic and isn’t getting the deeper level logic trying to be communicated. Similarly, there is deeper, broader realms of empathy. It is post-rational, yet a rationalist will see it as irrational because they cannot distinguish between irrational and post-rational - so a rationalist will group it all together as “irrational” because that is their only filter. 

Some beings have an extraordinary ability of imagination. It isn’t an intellectual thing. They are very very good at imaging “what it’s like” to the point is starts to overlap of what it’s actually like. One way to verify this is to speak with people that have actually experienced it. For example, someone might imagine what a PTSD episode is like to the point they are experiencing a PTSD episode, even if the event didn’t even happen. They could then ask a person with PTSD “is it kinda this?”. There may be a resonance of “yea, yea and kinda like this”. It’s not so much the words, it is the underlying essence of the words. Another form of high level empathy is a “getting it” with someone you are with. For example, a woman trying to communicate what postpartum harm anxiety is like. There is a form of empathic knowing. Or being with someone who is a non-speaking autistic trapped in their own mind. A form of empath might enter a similar insane experience of being trapped within their mind. Or imagine watching someone describe the horror of being in solitary confinement. A rationalist might find it intellectually intriguing. A normie might experience mild discomfort and change the channel. One type of empath might enter that realm of insanity - they have that ability. As if they become entangled - ala quantum physics. For such people, they need to be careful for at the deeper levels, it can become traumatizing. Almost like having a terrible nightmare, yet not being able to distinguish it as “just a dream”.

Form some beings, psychedelics can elevate a baseline empathic ability. Yet one needs to be careful. Jumping from empathic level 3 to empathic level 52 can be intense and very difficult to integrate. 

One key to developing post-rational connections is the awareness when someone is communicating “no, no. That’s not what I’m trying to communicate”. A major block for an objective rationalist is assuming they know what another is trying to communicate. Some rationalists even tell the other person what they are trying to communicate. Empaths aren’t oriented like this. 

And all of this is merely one ‘part’ of the elephant. The leg so to speak. We could move over and explore the tusk and everything above would go *poof* into dust (unless we wanted to draw inter-connections between the leg and tusk within a larger system. Yet even that larger system of an elephant is within an even larger system (herd of elephants) and that system is within a larger system (the ecosystem) etc. to infinity). 

[Gesundheit]

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

@Someone here the most beneficial for everyone in the long term.

That's a far-fetched fantasy. Because unfortunately, God is not that powerful.

[Preety_India]

Lot of new agey spirituality on this thread, slippery slippery slope that one. 

 

Word salad 

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Preety_India

[DocWatts]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

That would be a form of retributive justice. After Larry Nassar got busted I noticed a range of retributive justice sentiment. Some people wanted him to pay for his crimes by serving time in prison. Others hoped and fantasized that he would be abused and suffer in prison. One person even described graphic images of how other prisoners should abuse him. In a way, that is proportional since Nassar inflicted abuse and suffering onto others. At a healthy Blue level, there is serving a prison sentence. Throw in some Red and we get into an “eye for an eye” justice served mentality.

Utilitarian justice would have a very different perspective. This is focused on rehabilitating criminals so they can return to society as contributing members. Yet it seems very unlikely that Trump can be rehabilitated. This itself is a relative view, many believe Trump is a hero the way he is.

From the perspective that Trump is a criminal, in what form will there be justice? He has an impeachment on his record, yet that is merely a wrist slap. Is losing an election ‘justice’ for crimes? I’d say that is a consequence, not justice. Will Trump ever be tried in court and serve a prison sentence? I’d say unlikely. Is Trump’s karmic discomfort in living life as a narcissist sufficient justice? I’d imagine most people would say no. . . So this brings us back to the virus. Many people see the virus as a form of justice that Trump cannot escape - yet he is trying to do so with the best medical doctors and science. In this framing, it would be similar to Trump facing a trial for his crimes and his team of lawyers (doctors) are trying to use legal arguments (anti-viral treatment) to save him. Rooting for the prosecuting attorney’s and a life-long prison sentence (or death sentence) would be like rooting for the virus. From this perspective, the virus within Trump is the good guy of justice - the only chance for Trump to face justice. 

Just one perspective of many. It’s amazing how many perspectives are flying around right now. It’s like a playground for minds that can perspective jump. 

 

There are distinctions. A person can hope for the death of an individual as a form of retributive or utilitarian justice. Experiencing pleasure via the pain and suffering of another’s death is sadism. That is a different ballgame. Yet there are various degrees and forms of sadism. 

Thank you for the thoughtful response, you've given me a lot to reflect on; like just how imperfect justice can be in the real world; what"s the proper perspective to take when restorative justice isn't a realistic possibility, or when institutions are unlikely to hold people to account for thier actions?

I won't pretend to have all of this figured out, but my own inclinations are to be highly uncomfortable cheering on anyone's death, even an objectively terrible person's. 

[Thewritersunion]

*coughs*

[Forestluv]

46 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

I won't pretend to have all of this figured out, but my own inclinations are to be highly uncomfortable cheering on anyone's death, even an objectively terrible person's. 

I’ve been perspective jumping. Not everyone is into this type of thing right now. 

Lots of different contexts of what “death” here represents.

1. There is the context of  cheering on the death of a good person.

2. There is the context of personally hating a terrible person that has caused human suffering and cheering on their death as a form of justice. “Good for them. They got what they deserved”.

3. There is the context of cheering on the death of the suffering caused by an abuser. If someone abuses children and dies, there is the cheering for the death of the abuse. The abuse to the children has died. 

4. There is also an impersonal form of death. If scientists figure out how to kill the coronavirus, the death of the coronavirus would relieve the suffering of billions of humans in the world. Yet the death of the virus could harm global biodiversity. Humans are cheering scientists on to develop a vaccine to kill the virus. Yet from the perspective of biodiversity in nature, nature may be highly uncomfortable cheering the death of a virus humans call terrible. From a trans-human view, the coronavirus and the death of millions of humans and subsequent re-structuring of human society may be good for biodiversity and nature. 

We could also draw a distinction between “rooting for” and “cheering for”. . . For example, let’s suppose If Trump survives, he will cause the the death of 2,000 plant/animal species and 200,000 human deaths in the next four years. From this perspective, who to root for seems like a no-brainer. Yet of course this is a simplistic hypothetical and it can get much more nuanced. 

 

[mandyjw]

32 minutes ago, Thewritersunion said:

*coughs*

Uh oh. Better get tested for the Rona.