Is there a world out there? - Resolved.

[latch]

@NondualesStudium

On 10/1/2020 at 3:33 PM, NondualesStudium said:

Solipsism is the ego misinterpreting a mystical experience/oneness.

This statement sounds like a guess.

The way I understand it the ego is part of a popular theory in the same way the Higgs Boson is part of the theory of the Standard Model. Constructs or metaphors of label structure meant to help us understand what is going on. 

Having not studied it, I would talking out the side of my neck to say I know what I'm talking about but since I'm not indoctrinated in psychoanalytic theory, I'm not bound by its constructs.

 

I don't mind sounding ignorant when I say view psychology science as transient or a 'current best guess' not as concrete answers to the way things work.

[Meister_Eckhart]

On 1-10-2020 at 11:34 AM, Someone here said:

So to summarize.. There is no you or other people or a world out there. But if looked at them from the view point of separation. Then a question arises about the relationship between the me and the world. But that whole separation is illusory. Therefore there is no place for the question about the relationship between nonexistent things. 

So.. Other people don't exist as other people. They exist as you. 

There is no you, I got you there. There are no others, no objections to that.

But, then there is still that which seems to be perception (a perceived reality) from this perspective (this body). I'm not saying there's someone in the body or being the body, I'm saying there is what seems to be perception from the body. Now, can you tell whether or not there is, besides perception from this body, ALSO such perception from the other bodies that are perceived by this body?

Because this body did not get that yet.

[Moksha]

22 minutes ago, Meister_Eckhart said:

There is no you, I got you there. There are no others, no objections to that.

But, then there is still that which seems to be perception (a perceived reality) from this perspective (this body). I'm not saying there's someone in the body or being the body, I'm saying there is what seems to be perception from the body. Now, can you tell whether or not there is, besides perception from this body, ALSO such perception from the other bodies that are perceived by this body?

Because this body did not get that yet.

It's like the Unmanifested is an infinite ocean of consciousness. The waves ebb and flow as the transient focal points of this underlying consciousness. The ocean itself is unified, but the waves are diverse. The waves are part of the ocean, but they are not the ocean. The waves have real, if ephemeral, existence, but they are only the surface manifestation of the ocean that created them.

[Meister_Eckhart]

 @Moksha but if we stay literal in this case: do the other bodies perceive reality from a perspective as well?

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, Meister_Eckhart said:

 @Moksha but if we stay literal in this case: do the other bodies perceive reality from a perspective as well?

Yes, but only from a relative perspective. There is no ultimate perspective on the surface of the ocean.

[Javfly33]

@Gesundheit Agree ? .

If I'd have to take a guess, the experiences from the deepest trips seem to conclude than in fact I am God and I am imagining/creating reality always in the present moment..so anything that *Is Not in the present moment, for pure definition it literally doesn't exist. Because existence is reality. And reality is the present moment.

But I still think I am talking right now to a human being out there (you) and not just my imagination..maybe because is not clear still to me, or maybe because I want to keep living in delusion and truth would be too radical to keep living in accordance to it

[Gesundheit]

@Javfly33 The element of consistency is what puzzles and confuses me the most. The world is not just some arbitrary stuff floating around in a space of awareness. There is an undeniable consistency. You can put your hand behind your back and then look at it again, and it will still be there. You can do that experiment a billion times and it will still work perfectly without any bugs or lags. Yet, you can't know for sure that at the billionth and first time it will still work or not. So it's an apparent consistency but not actual in any proper sense. There are these apparent "rules" in reality, but they're not real in any proper sense, as they could change at any moment. One could use a subjective reasoning and say that: well, you're imagining everything, including the apparent rules and apparent consistency. And that may be true in a certain sense, but not absolutely. There are hidden assumptions within these types of explanations. For instance, it is assumed that perception is the actual reality and that thoughts are secondary. As in only direct experience actually exists and everything else is just imagination (perception here implies existence, and thought/imagination implies non-existence) so it's based on creating a duality between perception and thought i.e. existence and non-existence, and then denying that duality and assume it to be absolute truth. Leo does that all the time.

From personal experience, every single theory that I tried, no matter how comprehensive I thought it was, have always failed to completely capture reality. Even to say that it's God doing Godly things, and to fill God in the gaps all the way, it doesn't actually answer anything. It's like saying it's a mystery that you can't actually understand, only in a tricky and twisted manner. So maybe there are no answers after all. Maybe everyone is just making guesses and/or is delusional. And maybe we're still apes that have found some way to exert the power of intellectual superiority as means to control and manipulate other apes.

[Someone here]

@Gesundheit no offense at all taken. 

You just didn't understand anything from what I wrote. 

I will summarize it for ya.. 

There is no you my dear! .. That's a myth.. Go ahead tell me what is fuck is you? 

You are not "perceiving" anything.. If there is no perceiver (no you) how can there be perception? 

So there's no world when you're not perceiving it because there is no you to perceive anything. Therefore there is no world even when you are perceiving it. Because world =other than you.  If there is no you there is no other there is no world. 

So what the fuck is THIS then? 

Find out. 

[Someone here]

5 hours ago, Meister_Eckhart said:

There is no you, I got you there. There are no others, no objections to that.

But, then there is still that which seems to be perception (a perceived reality) from this perspective (this body). I'm not saying there's someone in the body or being the body, I'm saying there is what seems to be perception from the body. Now, can you tell whether or not there is, besides perception from this body, ALSO such perception from the other bodies that are perceived by this body?

Because this body did not get that yet.

It seems that way.. That's right.. But actually there is no you inside the body observing anything.. Similarly there is no me inside the body observing anything... Same for all other bodies.. Therefore no one exists in the universe.. Neither you. Nor other people.. The universe is empty of "persons".   It's one unified field of consciousness. This consciousness has no inherent boundaries.  Your mind (which doesn't exist) draws imaginary boundaries to construct a sense if indentity. But whatever you identify as yourself will become yourself. And whatever you identify as others will become others.  The actuality is there is neither you nor others as a fixed separate things with clear boundaries.. That's why you can imagine those boundaries however you want. 

[INIT]

24 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It seems that way.. That's right.. But actually there is no you inside the body observing anything.. Similarly there is no me inside the body observing anything... Same for all other bodies.. Therefore no one exists in the universe.. Neither you. Nor other people.. The universe is empty of "persons".   It's one unified field of consciousness. This consciousness has no inherent boundaries.  Your mind (which doesn't exist) draws imaginary boundaries to construct a sense if indentity. But whatever you identify as yourself will become yourself. And whatever you identify as others will become others.  The actuality is there is neither you nor others as a fixed separate things with clear boundaries.. That's why you can imagine those boundaries however you want. 

How are things moving if there is no one there to move them?

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, INIT said:

How are things moving if there is no one there to move them?

Sit still.. Close your eyes.. Try as hard as you can to still your body completely.. Internally and externally.. In terms of thoughts sensations emotions etc.... Notice that you can't.. That the movement of consciousness happens automatically without" you " having any say in it. 

[INIT]

3 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Sit still.. Close your eyes.. Try as hard as you can to still your body completely.. Internally and externally.. In terms of thoughts sensations emotions etc.... Notice that you can't.. That the movement of consciousness happens automatically without" you " having any say in it. 

Yup, i've got no say in it. Who does?

[Someone here]

Just now, INIT said:

Yup, i've got no say in it. Who does?

Nothing. 

[INIT]

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Nothing. 

So no one is moving? My fingers are not moving right now? I can see them moving on their own, no mover, just movement. The question is who is moving, if the answer is no one, then how can there be movement. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by INIT

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, INIT said:

So no one is moving? 

What do you mean by "one"?  If you mean a separate distinct object or thing.. There is no such thing.. So no one is moving because there is no "one" as in a separate  object in reality.. Reality is one unified whole.. It appears as if there are separate objects moving relative to each other.. But the big picture is its all one uinfied eternal field of consciousness. Since its infinite you can't say it's moving or still.. Because movement is relative to a frame of reference.. And since reality is ONE Infinite field.. There is nothing outside of it to be a frame of reference... You can't ask if reality as a whole is moving or still.. Because you have to get outside of reality to measure that.. But there is no outside of reality. Wherever you are you are inside of reality.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Someone here

[Someone here]

15 minutes ago, INIT said:

My fingers are not moving right now? I can see them moving on their own, no mover, just movement.

Sure they appear to be moving. And that's it.  Fingers moving.  Where is this "mover"?  . Just fingers moving. The mover is an idea.  

17 minutes ago, INIT said:

The question is who is moving, if the answer is no one, then how can there be movement. 

There is no one moving. That is duality. Something moving. And a movement. But notice these two things (the something that's moving and the movement of it) are ONE THING. 

[INIT]

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Sure they appear to be moving. And that's it.  Fingers moving.  Where is this "mover"?  . Just fingers moving. The mover is an idea.  

So fingers moving without a mover? Bodies moving without a mover? Animals walking without a mover?

certainly there needs to be a mover, i Cannot conclude that there is no one moving everything Including our fingers

 

[INIT]

27 minutes ago, Someone here said:

There is no one moving. That is duality. Something moving. And a movement. But notice these two things (the something that's moving and the movement of it) are ONE THING. 

I can agree that there is no mover since i cannot find the mover, yet movement is happening. Which is impossible in of itself. If there is movement, there should be someone in control of the movement. But i see movement with no mover. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by INIT

[Someone here]

@INIT if you see an animal moving.. How is the thing that you call "movement" and "animal" separate or distinct?  Is there an animal out there and a separate entity called movement?  You don't see an animal and a movement of an animal.. You see one indivisible phenomenon. 

3 minutes ago, INIT said:

certainly there needs to be a mover, i Cannot conclude that there is no one moving everything Including our fingers

The mover is the movement is the object that is moving.  When fingers move.. The fingers are the mover.. The fingers are the movement.. The fingers are the objects that is moving.  Everything moves itself. 

It all can be solved by understanding nonduality. Any duality you imagine (mover-movement) is imaginary. 

[An young being]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

@Javfly33 The element of consistency is what puzzles and confuses me the most. The world is not just some arbitrary stuff floating around in a space of awareness. There is an undeniable consistency. You can put your hand behind your back and then look at it again, and it will still be there. You can do that experiment a billion times and it will still work perfectly without any bugs or lags. Yet, you can't know for sure that at the billionth and first time it will still work or not. So it's an apparent consistency but not actual in any proper sense. There are these apparent "rules" in reality, but they're not real in any proper sense, as they could change at any moment. One could use a subjective reasoning and say that: well, you're imagining everything, including the apparent rules and apparent consistency. And that may be true in a certain sense, but not absolutely. There are hidden assumptions within these types of explanations. For instance, it is assumed that perception is the actual reality and that thoughts are secondary. As in only direct experience actually exists and everything else is just imagination (perception here implies existence, and thought/imagination implies non-existence) so it's based on creating a duality between perception and thought i.e. existence and non-existence, and then denying that duality and assume it to be absolute truth. Leo does that all the time.

From personal experience, every single theory that I tried, no matter how comprehensive I thought it was, have always failed to completely capture reality. Even to say that it's God doing Godly things, and to fill God in the gaps all the way, it doesn't actually answer anything. It's like saying it's a mystery that you can't actually understand, only in a tricky and twisted manner. So maybe there are no answers after all. Maybe everyone is just making guesses and/or is delusional. And maybe we're still apes that have found some way to exert the power of intellectual superiority as means to control and manipulate other apes.

The whole world is one and the boundaries are imaginary. That's the base and unarguable truth. The world exists whether there is a perceiving body or not. The theory that the world simply disappears when we die is only a theory that can never be verified by experiment or insight.

Then why do we have boundaries and perceptions?

If you really want the truth, It is simply created by the brain to make this piece of organic matter exist for a longer time which scientists explain using evolution and survival.

Why does this individual need to survive?

Simply because the individuals that need not survive don't exist beyond certain time and they have gone extinct because of individuals that wants to survive. Individual pieces of matter that don't have boundaries have less chance of survival than individual with boundaries.

Is there a purpose for this individual?

In my opinion, there are two possibilities:

1) There is nothing called purpose, the feeling that we have some purpose is one again a result of the brain that wants to survive. All possibilities exist in the world and we are living in all possibilities except that the brain is capable of only showing us one which is again is a limiting ability of the brain helping us to survive. Whether the brain has control over choosing the possibility is debatable.

2) There is indeed some purpose in the fundamental nature of the universe but not as an individual. There is a driving force that chooses the most probable version by some kind of programming. Free will is the fundamental code that we can write using the program which the brain managed to connect with. The universe decides on which direction the world moves. We as beings with a sense of individuality and purpose have the same control as that of universe. There are lot of stuff on the universe that our scientific mind may not have discovered but the brain had already discovered unconsciously.

In the end, once again, it's all theories except the first one. Everything is built around that concrete fact