Is there a world out there? - Resolved.

[An young being]

50 minutes ago, INIT said:

So fingers moving without a mover? Bodies moving without a mover? Animals walking without a mover?

certainly there needs to be a mover, i Cannot conclude that there is no one moving everything Including our fingers

 

That's what differentiates living and the dead. Everything is moving and the same force drives the movement. The ones with less movement are the dead ones and the ones with more 'visible' movement are the living ones.

There is no denying of the movement, the only denial is the sense of an individual controlling only its  own movement. Either the individual controls all the movements in the universe or no movement at all.

Edited October 4, 2020 by An young being

[INIT]

50 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It all can be solved by understanding nonduality. Any duality you imagine (mover-movement) is imaginary. 

This shits complicated lol

[An young being]

2 minutes ago, INIT said:

This shits complicated lol

You use the glass to get water from the pot, so you can drink it. You use the body to perceive yourself from different angles so that you can enjoy it. When you shed the body, you realize that even the glass and water are no different.

[Someone here]

Gotta get over this notion of  "the individual".   

@An young being 

[An young being]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Gotta get over this notion of  "the individual".   

@An young being 

Yeah, for understanding it's fine but for having fun, we need the individual.

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, An young being said:

Yeah, for understanding it's fine but for having fun, we need the individual.

Fun IS the lack of the sense of individuality.  ?

 

[Meister_Eckhart]

7 hours ago, Someone here said:

It seems that way.. That's right.. But actually there is no you inside the body observing anything.. Similarly there is no me inside the body observing anything... Same for all other bodies.. Therefore no one exists in the universe.. Neither you. Nor other people.. The universe is empty of "persons".   It's one unified field of consciousness. This consciousness has no inherent boundaries.  Your mind (which doesn't exist) draws imaginary boundaries to construct a sense if indentity. But whatever you identify as yourself will become yourself. And whatever you identify as others will become others.  The actuality is there is neither you nor others as a fixed separate things with clear boundaries.. That's why you can imagine those boundaries however you want. 

That point has been made and I won’t argue it now. I’m just trying to get clear if it is true that other bodies actually also have their ‘point of perception’, just as this body.

That’s important. Otherwise it could be the case that ‘your’ (not your but you get me) point of perception is the only point of perception, and that the other bodies acting in the world are not having their perspective point of perceptions.
 

Hope this is clearly phrased.

[Bulgarianspirit]

27 minutes ago, Meister_Eckhart said:

That point has been made and I won’t argue it now. I’m just trying to get clear if it is true that other bodies actually also have their ‘point of perception’, just as this body.

That’s important. Otherwise it could be the case that ‘your’ (not your but you get me) point of perception is the only point of perception, and that the other bodies acting in the world are not having their perspective point of perceptions.
 

Hope this is clearly phrased.

Solipsism

[Member]

Something inspiring:

[Someone here]

42 minutes ago, Meister_Eckhart said:

That point has been made and I won’t argue it now. I’m just trying to get clear if it is true that other bodies actually also have their ‘point of perception’, just as this body.

That’s important. Otherwise it could be the case that ‘your’ (not your but you get me) point of perception is the only point of perception, and that the other bodies acting in the world are not having their perspective point of perceptions.
 

Hope this is clearly phrased.

Yes I'm having an experience right now just as you.. I'm a real person with feelings emotions sensations etc.. You are not the only one who is experiencing reality.. Everyone else are experiencing it as well. 

But you can't have access to my experience.  If you can have access to my experience you would be me. Which means you won't be you anymore.  For you to be you.. You have to be you and not me.. If you can experience me you would be me and not you. ?

 

[Meister_Eckhart]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Yes I'm having an experience right now just as you.. I'm a real person with feelings emotions sensations etc.. You are not the only one who is experiencing reality.. Everyone else are experiencing it as well. 

Thanks that's what I was asking about   

I actually just realize that no one can really give the answer to this, for it will always be someone else telling you and you'll never REALLY know the truth of it, is what it seems like to me now.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Meister_Eckhart

[Someone here]

@Meister_Eckhart well in a sense from your relative perspective you are really the only one here cuz everyone else are just appearances within your own experience.   The thing is they appear to you to be having an experience of their own.. So whether that's actually the case or not.. You are going to deal with them from that lense anyways. So what's the difference?   See there is no difference actually. You are alone and together at the same time.   It's all a matter of perspective.  No one single perspective of reality is ultimately true. Cuz reality is absolutely infinte. There is nothing to force it to be a certain way.  Solipsism being a limited way that reality can be.. Can't be the ultimate truth. 

[Gesundheit]

10 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Gesundheit 

There is no you my dear! .. That's a myth..

How do you know? Maybe there's no you, but there's me (playing devil's advocate here).

10 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Gesundheit Go ahead tell me what is fuck is you?

Using the dual terminology, I don't know. Using the non-dual terminology, nothing and/or everything. In both cases, there's no actual answer provided.

10 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Gesundheit 

You are not "perceiving" anything..

That's just non-dual terminology where there are no dualities. It's just an assumption based on nothing tangible. How do you know for sure that there is no me perceiving anything? Especially when it seems exactly the opposite. What if there is a me that you can't actually perceive? What if your perception is the problem? What if your perception is too limited and cannot reach the threshold required to perceive separate selves while in fact there are separate selves out there?

10 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Gesundheit If there is no perceiver (no you) how can there be perception? 

So there's no world when you're not perceiving it because there is no you to perceive anything. Therefore there is no world even when you are perceiving it. Because world =other than you.  If there is no you there is no other there is no world.

Hold your horses and go one step backwards.

10 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Gesundheit  

So what the fuck is THIS then?

I'd say I don't know. And you'd say it's nothing. And we both would be saying the same thing in different languages, but you'd probably deny your lack of knowledge and tell me that what you said is somehow absolute truth while what I said is just ignorance.

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Gesundheit  

Find out. 

Maybe someday, and maybe never.

[Meister_Eckhart]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

@Meister_Eckhart well in a sense from your relative perspective you are really the only one here cuz everyone else are just appearances within your own experience.   The thing is they appear to you to be having an experience of their own.. So whether that's actually the case or not.. You are going to deal with them from that lense anyways. So what's the difference?   See there is no difference actually. You are alone and together at the same time.   It's all a matter of perspective.  

I agree that I will deal from this lense anyway. But saying that there is no difference is not answering the question.

The difference is that either:

1. there is only perception from my body. All other bodies that are perceived or not actually perceiving from their body - it only seems they are.
2. all other bodies are also, just as it seems, perceiving reality (instead of that it only seems like that from my perspective).

My current opinion is I can never really know the truth of this - how could one?

 

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

@Meister_Eckhart No one single perspective of reality is ultimately true. Cuz reality is absolutely infinte. There is nothing to force it to be a certain way.  Solipsism being a limited way that reality can be.. Can't be the ultimate truth. 

I'm not talking about absolute Truth now.

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Meister_Eckhart said:

My current opinion is I can never really know the truth of this - how could one?

 

Maybe the very nature of  Truth is not objective. It's basically However it happend to click with ya. 

See the ultimate answer to  questions such as "how" and "why" is I don't fucking know.  And that is the only true answer.  Because any "why" you impose upon reality is limited.. You have to ground that "why" by another why.. And so on.. Drop all whys and hows.. And you will find the answer to everything. 

[Moksha]

4 hours ago, Meister_Eckhart said:

My current opinion is I can never really know the truth of this - how could one?

Bingo. This is why conceptual discussions are ultimately recursive. They can be fun, but the only knowledge they reveal is that there is no knowledge.

Enlightenment is experiential, not conceptual. Being aware in stillness, without interruptions from the conditioned mind, is beautiful and it is healing. It is the beginning of the end of suffering, and that is all that matters.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Moksha

[An young being]

3 hours ago, Meister_Eckhart said:

I agree that I will deal from this lense anyway. But saying that there is no difference is not answering the question.

The difference is that either:

1. there is only perception from my body. All other bodies that are perceived or not actually perceiving from their body - it only seems they are.
2. all other bodies are also, just as it seems, perceiving reality (instead of that it only seems like that from my perspective).

My current opinion is I can never really know the truth of this - how could one?

 

I'm not talking about absolute Truth now.

The brain is a bunch of thoughts storing machine. There happens to be no relation between memories and consciousness and people claiming to remember past lives never give enough proof and unfortunately most tell a lot of lies. This means even if what you call 'you', a bunch of thoughts manage to go into another individual's perspective, you will not remember because you don't carry the old self memories with you.

So, the only thing that gives you an individual sense of self is the brain. The only way to experience another's perspective is to clone the body and insert your old self memories into that. That is definitely possible going by the current trends, so soon the uniqueness of individuality may disappear because of science. 

 

[Gesundheit]

20 hours ago, An young being said:

The whole world is one and the boundaries are imaginary. That's the base and unarguable truth.

This is an issue of categorizing things. As well, we could categorize "the one world" in infinite different ways (btw, what about parallel realities? Are they part of "the world"? Or are they independent worlds? What is "the world" exactly?). Who's to say which way is the base and unarguable truth? Maybe thought is not so deceiving. Maybe it just delivers truth directly and without bias. Maybe the "imaginary" boundaries are real after all and not just made up to trick or to help survive. What if the people that perceive more of these imaginary boundaries are not actually deluded but in fact the most intelligent/enlightened?

[Someone here]

13 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

How do you know? Maybe there's no you, but there's me. 

I don't know that. There is no me to know it. There is no me or you here. And there is nothing here. There is only wholeness infinity consciousness God unfolding.  And that's not something that I know. That's something that I don't know because I don't exist. 

You are talking to a body - mind that has seen through  duality. And knows himself as no thing. Careful with your clever little games. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Someone here

[Gesundheit]

@Someone here Yeah, pretty much what I was expecting.