I contemplated "What is Mind?" for several days and this is what I found

[billiesimon]

So, this question was bugging me for several weeks until I started to actively contemplate it, also backed up by the past insights of my psychedelic trips. But the contemplation was in a "sober" state.

Since I was hoping that Leo could release a video about it some day, I invite @Leo Gura to read and correct me if I'm wrong on the matter 

 

WHAT IS MIND?

The shocking answer seems to be...

MIND IS EVERYTHING THAT IS IMPERMANENT!!!! 

 

The true "core" of existence is NOT mind, but the True I, or Consciousness, or Brahman.

Brahman, in my experience, is a formless and invisible texture/cloth which can become the stage of every kind of scenario possible to imagination.

But that's not the matter of the thread.

Consciousness seems to "create" Mind, which is not a duality but a FEATURE INSIDE consciousness, which allows for creation of perceptions and emotions etc....

 

So.... the body is Mind.

Emotions are Mind.

Thoughts are Mind (that was quite obvious for science too )

Existence is NOT Mind!!!!

 

Mind is everything which is Form. And it is also the function to shape and modify Forms.

But Mind is ultimately just a formless feature of Consciousness, and in the end Mind is NOT real.

But Consciousness is absolutely real.

 

Yeah. It's quite the horror from a human perspective 

[Batman]

I hope it is okay to invite myself  to propose a (slightly) different approach.

The word Mind generally serves as a representation of certain activities within the different domains of experience, generally known as mental activities which are absent of object, such as thoughts, emotions, internal chatter and so on.

Therefore, it appears that Mind is a distinction within human experience. That is I wouldn't classify it as a "feature" of Consciousness, which is generally regarded here as being prior to Mind. It also seems as if Mind has a self-referential aspect to it, provided that the activity of mind is the generator of the distinction Mind itself.

Also I would not hold that the activities of Mind serve as the foundation or source of perceptions and emotions (unless you wish to recontextualize the general interpretation of the word 'Mind'), because they seem to exist almost entirely independent of each other (although probably impossible to recollect, I would assert that an infant experience perceptions and emotions, but lacks the Mind faculties needed for interpretation, identification or other form of mental activity which is required to establish the 'requisite' relationship to the content of their experience).

Of course that everything stated above is rather pointless if your intention by using the word Mind with capital letter was to refer to a certain meta concept of mind. Please clarify.

By the way, I am thrilled to hear how did you experience Brahman. 

 

Yours,

Batman

 

[Breakingthewall]

 

the mind is over all memory. without memory there is void. the mind is partly real, since that memory exists, be it a wave in infinite nothingness, or whatever. when you say it is not real you mean it is not permanent, but as long as the wave vibrates, it exists somehow. the question is to understand as deeply as possible what it is, to be able to relax its pressure, because the mind is that create the illusion of isolation

[billiesimon]

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

because the mind is that create the illusion of isolation

Absolutely yes, Mind is the creator of boundaries.

51 minutes ago, Batman said:

I hope it is okay to invite myself  to propose a (slightly) different approach.

The word Mind generally serves as a representation of certain activities within the different domains of experience, generally known as mental activities which are absent of object, such as thoughts, emotions, internal chatter and so on.

Therefore, it appears that Mind is a distinction within human experience. That is I wouldn't classify it as a "feature" of Consciousness, which is generally regarded here as being prior to Mind. It also seems as if Mind has a self-referential aspect to it, provided that the activity of mind is the generator of the distinction Mind itself.

Also I would not hold that the activities of Mind serve as the foundation or source of perceptions and emotions (unless you wish to recontextualize the general interpretation of the word 'Mind'), because they seem to exist almost entirely independent of each other (although probably impossible to recollect, I would assert that an infant experience perceptions and emotions, but lacks the Mind faculties needed for interpretation, identification or other form of mental activity which is required to establish the 'requisite' relationship to the content of their experience).

Of course that everything stated above is rather pointless if your intention by using the word Mind with capital letter was to refer to a certain meta concept of mind. Please clarify.

By the way, I am thrilled to hear how did you experience Brahman. 

 

Yours,

Batman

 

Ahahah I love Batman!  My favourite hero.

 

Well, I might be wrong, but in the metaphysical meaning I give to Mind, it seems to make sense.

I don't mean the "human mind" or the ability for cognition here. I use Mind in a way broader and existential sense.

Mind: a quality of Consciousness, not separated from it, which can create boundaries, forms and time-perception. Mind is completely illusory and it is not attached to any particular form or living being. In fact the illusion of life is created by Mind, which is a "skill" of Consciousness. Mind is not separated from Brahman, it is just an inherent quality.

 

Consciousness to me seems to be like an infinite and transparent cloth, and it is Me, it is the True Sense of "I".

Consciousness has the ability to morph and create imaginary boundaries and shapes inside it, this ability is Mind. But I guess this can be taken into the wrong meaning, since Mind is associated with the brain.
Mind is basically Divine Intelligence.

 

Mind is like a brush INSIDE consciousness, and it can paint any form and any boundary CONSCIOUSNESS wants. Mind has NO will of its own. It is just like the hand of a human. It is the human who uses the hand and the hand has no separation from the human.

What I'm trying to say is that everything is Brahman, BUT the specific feature of Brahman which creates the Ego and the sensory reality is Mind (Divine Intelligence). Of course Mind is just pure emptiness and thus the only true reality is Brahman/Consciousness.
There is NO duality between Mind and the True I.

 

 

I have experienced the absolute/Brahman in four different psychedelic experiences, two were of divine love, and two were of the absolute ghostly nature of matter and the dreamy fabric of reality. Absolute hardcore ego backlashes the days after 

I'm also working on getting these mindblowing experiences from sober states, with self inquiry and meditation and breathing. But the most I've gotten so far is becoming aware that all sense perceptions are one single undivided block of "inputs" without a real ego behind, but still not a true ego death. I'm working on it and I'm gonna get it sober!!! 

[Nahm]

@billiesimon

Great work!

”Sober states” “non sober states” “states”....all still actually the very same Mind.

Maybe you didn’t experience ego backlash from the trips, but unknowingly the resistance you were applying (and labelling backlash) of ‘this isn’t It’, ‘that was It’, while this ‘sober’ is It. Like, associating It to a substance, missing the actuality of the substance is also just Mind. Same as the couch. 

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, billiesimon said:

Consciousness has the ability to morph and create imaginary boundaries and shapes inside it, this ability is Mind. But I guess this can be taken into the wrong meaning, since Mind is associated with the brain.
Mind is basically Divine Intelligence.

 

Mind is like a brush INSIDE consciousness, and it can paint any form and any boundary CONSCIOUSNESS wants. Mind has NO will of its own. It is just like the hand of a human. It is the human who uses the hand and the hand has no separation from the human

That is a great realization and explanation. How kind of trips? 5 meo maybe? I saw with 5 meo how the space and time dissapear , and over all, how them appear when the mind comes back, like a software. That idea about mind, that it's divine intelligence, not only memory or ideas, is absolutely great. It's like we are playing a game against ourselves because in humans the mind is... imperfect. It doesn't work well, like in a bird or any animal. They have mind, that create his Maya, but his Maya is perfect. Our Maya is a kind of mess, the divine intelligence had some fails in the design of this sophisticated toy or like that. Or maybe it's how is should be. Imperfect to make the toy transcend. The human is the only animal "unhappy". The frustration is our sign of identity, and we should wear our frustration with proud. I'm tired to read in this forum that we don't exist, etc etc. Of course we exist, of course Maya exist. It's an illusion created for the mind. And? Created. So exist. Impermanently? Yes, so what? Divine intelligence in action. Open your eyes and see the wonder

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Breakingthewall

[VeganAwake]

@billiesimon ❤

"Mind contemplated "What is Mind?" for several days and this is what Mind found"

Is 'I' something other than Mind?

[Corpus]

12 hours ago, Batman said:

I hope it is okay to invite myself  to propose a (slightly) different approach.

The word Mind generally serves as a representation of certain activities within the different domains of experience, generally known as mental activities which are absent of object, such as thoughts, emotions, internal chatter and so on.

Therefore, it appears that Mind is a distinction within human experience. That is I wouldn't classify it as a "feature" of Consciousness, which is generally regarded here as being prior to Mind. It also seems as if Mind has a self-referential aspect to it, provided that the activity of mind is the generator of the distinction Mind itself.

Also I would not hold that the activities of Mind serve as the foundation or source of perceptions and emotions (unless you wish to recontextualize the general interpretation of the word 'Mind'), because they seem to exist almost entirely independent of each other (although probably impossible to recollect,

Quote

I would assert that an infant experience perceptions and emotions, but lacks the Mind faculties needed for interpretation, identification or other form of mental activity which is required to establish the 'requisite' relationship to the content of their experience).

Of course that everything stated above is rather pointless if your intention by using the word Mind with capital letter was to refer to a certain meta concept of mind. Please clarify.

By the way, I am thrilled to hear how did you experience Brahman. 

 

Yours,

Batman

 

I like this post. Something I have noted which relates to the quote within the quote- the infant lacks language as the absent mind faculty. If you pay very very close attention you can discern that the voice in your head which we typically label as "thought" is associated with micro-movements of the tongue (and also the vocal apparatus-but this is harder to detect) which are a miniaturised version of the corresponding movements which are made when the "thought words" are uttered aloud. This becomes much more apparent if you think the words, then think them again with the tip of the tongue opposed to the roof of the mouth, and then think them once further with the tip of the tongue protruding between ones lips- you can note a subtle but clear difference between how the thought "sounds" between these 3 states.

 

It would seem that this component of mind only exists because we are kind of mumbling to ourselves constantly. This may also explain how trying to anticipate ones next thought can produce a period of absent mind chatter, until one starts mumbling to one self again.

 

[billiesimon]

11 hours ago, Nahm said:

Maybe you didn’t experience ego backlash from the trips, but unknowingly the resistance you were applying (and labelling backlash) of ‘this isn’t It’, ‘that was It’, while this ‘sober’ is It. Like, associating It to a substance, missing the actuality of the substance is also just Mind. Same as the couch. 

Well, yes, there's certainly a lot of resistance to the truth in "sober state", but right now I seem to not be able to completely let go in order to access ego death. 

It's weird because with psychedelics I start to feel a lot of negative emotions and resistance and then I completely let go and reach "death". From there onwards I generally feel the truth and true happiness.

But to me it seems like the "sober state" still needs a lot of manual work, inquiry, meditation etc.... in order to fully let go. Even when I am fully relaxed, I still feel some shapes and distinctions between perceptions. So I guess I need to work on it.

Or is there another way? Is it possible to fully let go without "working on it"? 

Edited September 30, 2020 by billiesimon

[billiesimon]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

That is a great realization and explanation. How kind of trips? 5 meo maybe? I saw with 5 meo how the space and time dissapear , and over all, how them appear when the mind comes back, like a software. That idea about mind, that it's divine intelligence, not only memory or ideas, is absolutely great. It's like we are playing a game against ourselves because in humans the mind is... imperfect. It doesn't work well, like in a bird or any animal. They have mind, that create his Maya, but his Maya is perfect. Our Maya is a kind of mess, the divine intelligence had some fails in the design of this sophisticated toy or like that. Or maybe it's how is should be. Imperfect to make the toy transcend. The human is the only animal "unhappy". The frustration is our sign of identity, and we should wear our frustration with proud. I'm tired to read in this forum that we don't exist, etc etc. Of course we exist, of course Maya exist. It's an illusion created for the mind. And? Created. So exist. Impermanently? Yes, so what? Divine intelligence in action. Open your eyes and see the wonder

 

I will try 5-meo-dmt in the future, but right now I'm too scared 

I've used 1P-LSD and 4-HO-MET to access these experiences. The first one is great for long explorations, the second one is more laser focused and short acting.

Did you try 5-meo? Is it hardcore? 

[billiesimon]

8 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

@billiesimon ❤

"Mind contemplated "What is Mind?" for several days and this is what Mind found"

Yes, that's another way to put it. 

The contemplation was done by Mind unto itself, but to be more exact it was Consciousness exploring its own facets and features through the ego, or avatar. The avatar is created by the mind, and it is just a costume, a playable character for Consciousness to inquiry about itself.

Well, the True I is not Mind, it is the One Absolute. When "I" becomes defined by shapes and characteristics, it becomes the False I, the Ego.

Edited September 30, 2020 by billiesimon

[Breakingthewall]

14 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

Did you try 5-meo? Is it hardcore? 

Yeah, first time 1 month ago and after that many times... maybe too many but Is there  some...thing, or no thing, that I can't to see or like that. I have to change the roa, I smoke and it's too fast. It isn't hardcore, in 1 second the mind explode in atoms and it's the void and the no time, and later the mind come back and it's like a software reinstalled, and Maya come back in another second. First time was trauma because I didn't expected that void . After first time with a small dose the no time is, but too short. After the first breakthrough the meditation is different, the void is close the surface

Edited September 30, 2020 by Breakingthewall

[billiesimon]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yeah, first time 1 month ago and after that many times... maybe too many but Is there  some...thing, or no thing, that I can't to see or like that. I have to change the roa, I smoke and it's too fast. It isn't hardcore, in 1 second the mind explode in atoms and it's the void and the no time, and later the mind come back and it's like a software reinstalled, and Maya come back in another second. First time was trauma because I didn't expected that void . After first time with a small dose the no time is, but too short. After the first breakthrough the meditation is different, the void is close the surface

It seems really powerful! 

How long does a smoked trip last? Leo says that plugged ROA is longer lasting.

You mention the disappearing of Maya. What happens to physical reality when you smoke it? Does everything disappear or do you still perceive the room, the sounds and the senses of normal reality? 

[VeganAwake]

40 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

Or is there another way? Is it possible to fully let go without "working on it"? 

This is good inquiry ❤

'I' think of the mind like a runaway train, sure it's an aspect of Consciousness as 'you' put it, but that doesn't negate the fact that it has become an entity unto itself. Simply put...it's getting too much attention.

The thoughts themselves aren't the apparent issue....the issue is the value and identification as 'MY' thoughts which so to speak keeps giving the runaway train fuel... if you keep popping quarters into the think machine, it keeps thinking. Don't get 'me' wrong, some thoughts are apparently useful like: maybe 'I' shouldn't go ?, there appears to be sharks in the water or maybe 'I' shouldn't drive after these several beers since there's 3 three confirmed DUI checkpoints randomly placed.

When these blah blah blah thoughts aren't constantly entertained and energized/identified with, they lesson and become the background noise instead of the forefront.

Mind is Playing Tricks, it says: See it's all Consciousness very relevant and important, keep feeding me and paying attention.

 

 

Is consciousness just an aspect of the Mind? 

Truly inquire non-biasedly!!

If the Mind becomes a vegetable, is consciousness still there?

If the body/mind got annihilated by a 75 mile an hour semi truck, is apparent Consciousness still there, or is it all just a dream thought.

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

28 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

 

I don't know exactly, few minutes. Yes, all dissapear, you don't perceive nothing of the normal reality , only nothingness. but I realized that with a half dose, after the breakthrough, I could be between the void and the normal reality, shift from one to another. It isn't nice or anything but it's very interesting to see the process, how the mind create the reality. But before to do that you need a total breakthrough at least once, seems that it change your mind for ever

[loub]

@Batman  Spot on!

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, billiesimon said:

Well, yes, there's certainly a lot of resistance to the truth in "sober state", but right now I seem to not be able to completely let go in order to access ego death. 

If there is resistance to the truth, then that resistance must be belief(s). Make sense? If it does, you’ve just outline the hamster wheel of beliefs; states, ego, and death. 

Quote

It's weird because with psychedelics I start to feel a lot of negative emotions and resistance and then I completely let go and reach "death". From there onwards I generally feel the truth and true happiness.

As you previously mentioned, you’re feeling resistance without psychedelics. But you fill that ‘gap’ with psychedelics. What if there weren’t any? What if you never heard of them? I’m not suggesting you do or don’t use them, I’m suggesting you see how you’re psychologically using them as a crutch when not on them. You could consider reversing the relationship, since you’re making it up in each moment anyways, like taking a trip as a reward for kicking ass in life, rather than thinking of them as what will enable you to kick ass in life. You could inquire into people who are awake and never took them to balance your perspectives with a bit of ‘reality’ in that regard. The main point here being not to continue the beliefs / duality of tripping vs sober. 

Quote

But to me it seems like the "sober state" still needs a lot of manual work, inquiry, meditation etc.... in order to fully let go. Even when I am fully relaxed, I still feel some shapes and distinctions between perceptions. So I guess I need to work on it.

Shapes and distinctions are thoughts not perception. Perception can’t be thought, just as thought can’t be percieved. 

Of course a “me” is going to need a lot of work. The “me” isn’t ‘there’ without the story supporting it, because the “me” is only the story. That you’re doing what you want, is easier than believing it’s because of need. 

Quote

Or is there another way? Is it possible to fully let go without "working on it"? 

What’s “it”?

I think if you read this, and then read your op again, you’ll see it’s all Mind in every case.

[billiesimon]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

I think if you read this, and then read your op again, you’ll see it’s all Mind in every case.

Thanks for the very nuanced reply  I had to read it multiple times to really understand the self deception here.

I guess that what you're saying is that I have a limiting belief about the hardship of reaching the feeling of oneness "sober".

Yes, I notice that there's a belief that it's really hard and it needs a lot of work and frustration. But I also realize that for some people it was very spontaneous and natural. So I'm pretty sure that there's a way to naturally let go and feel it in "everyday life" 

 

The method? I guess I should also let go of finding a method, otherwise I would revert back to the belief of needing a "powerful tool", like psychs.

Probably the method is just learning to completely let go of Mind and let reality BE without interference/resistance.

As Eckhart says, we have to let the present moment totally free to be, for us to become conscious of consciousness itself.

 

At least that's what feels right for me now 

[Nahm]

@billiesimon

If I need something, I am recreating the experience of an “I” which “needs”, and that is the lens upon all else. 

You can’t possibly have something you believe you need. If you already have it, you’re not believing you need it.

If I want something, and have no need for it, I experience it. 

You = the present moment. Moment = the present. 

It’s all quite FUBU. 

[billiesimon]

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

@billiesimon

If I need something, I am recreating the experience of an “I” which “needs”, and that is the lens upon all else. 

You can’t possibly have something you believe you need. If you already have it, you’re not believing you need it.

If I want something, and have no need for it, I experience it. 

You = the present moment. Moment = the present. 

It’s all quite FUBU. 

Thanks for the help