How appropriate is the Fascist label for Trump?

[DocWatts]

I know Leo touched on this briefly in the Spiral Dynamics Stage Red video, but I thought I might bring it up again to get some other thoughts and opinions. While one might argue that it's splitting hairs to even bring up the question because at the very least he's an authoritarian con-man who needs to be removed from Power regardless, I'd push back on that a bit by saying that it can still be useful for framing the Discussion around Trump as an election approaches. Also if we are going to use the 'Fascist' label, we want to make sure that it's not being misused in situations where it's not appropriate, robbing the word of its original meaning.

I think the difficulty here is that Fascism isn't a coherent ideology (like say Marxism), but a messy patchwork of nationalistic far right ideas and practices that have some commonalities such as :
- Extreme xenophobia and ethnocentrism
- Militarism and corporatism
- Heavy use of propaganda to set up an 'Us vs. Them' narrative that blames all the world's evils on some Other
- A subjugation of the individual to the needs of the State
- A cult of personality around a powerful leader
- A disdain for electoral politics and liberal democracies

While obviously many of these fit Trump, it also seems clear that he's opportunistically tapping in to some of these elements (which have existed below the surface of American society) for his own political advantage, without having any strong convictions or being fanatic in the same way that Hitler was. I honestly see Trump as closer to a Tony Soprano figure myself, who's willing cynically latch on to whatever belief structure or ideology benefits him personally.  Or is all this just what fascism looks like now in our Modern world?

Interested to hear some other thoughts and opinions on this.

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by DocWatts

[commie]

Trump can blame and hate but he has no actual struggle. Historical fascists structured their movement around their struggle and they were empowered to do the extraordinary things they did by much less flamboyant actors who wanted their enemies destroyed. Trump is at best a reality show fascist.

[Preety_India]

 

First of all, the points that you stated very much apply to Trump. 

The fact that Trump cannot answer a simple question like peaceful transfer of power, already establishes his fascism. 

Trump threatens anyone that goes against him by using terms like "jail",this is covert fascism. 

Trump is not afraid to use scare tactics and intimidation, for example, this is reflected in his tweet, "the looting starts, the shooting starts" that's a mafia language. 

He may appear like a mild fascist but don't be fooled, because we haven't yet the true nature of Trump, since he still does not have enough power, in a country like USA, he is constantly held accountable for his views, but if this is what he says in person, on camera, then what must be his views in his bedroom. 

I think he totally fits the fascist label. Imagine Trump in some European country where he is allowed to run rampant. The US constitution puts a curb  on his Fascist tendencies or else he would have taken his game too far. He addresses his crowds as if they are cult members. 

We have already seen fascists arising out of Europe like Hitler. 

I don't see Trump as any different, just a modern day trope of Hitler, only less solid and a bit blunted. Because he can't just be allowed to do stuff like Hitler did like that salute, obviously that won't fly in the US. But I totally assume that if Trump existed as a middle aged guy in the 1930s, he would totally be on board with Hitler and his policies. 

Trump is just as fanatic as any fascist, but the American culture kinda puts a lid on his fanaticism. He can't go too far. 

At the same time, Trump is more of a con artist than a pure fascist because he much too selfish to dedicate himself like Hitler. So he has all this fascist tendencies. But he mixes them with his business mindset to get what he wants.. 

I'd describe this behavior as an opportunistic fascist who uses his mafia logic and tactics to get what he wants meanwhile bamboozling the audience with his fascist ideology. 

 

 

[DocWatts]

13 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

First of all, the points that you stated very much apply to Trump. 

The fact that Trump cannot answer a simple question like peaceful transfer of power, already establishes his fascism. 

Trump threatens anyone that goes against him by using terms like "jail",this is covert fascism. 

Trump is not afraid to use scare tactics and intimidation, for example, this is reflected in his tweet, "the looting starts, the shooting starts" that's a mafia language. 

He may appear like a mild fascist but don't be fooled, because we haven't yet the true nature of Trump, since he still does not have enough power, in a country like USA, he is constantly held accountable for his views, but if this is what he says in person, on camera, then what must be his views in his bedroom. 

I think he totally fits the fascist label. Imagine Trump in some European country where he is allowed to run rampant. The US constitution puts a curb  on his Fascist tendencies or else he would have taken his game too far. He addresses his crowds as if they are cult members. 

We have already seen fascists arising out of Europe like Hitler. 

I don't see Trump as any different, just a modern day trope of Hitler, only less solid and a bit blunted. Because he can't just be allowed to do stuff like Hitler did like that salute, obviously that won't fly in the US. But I totally assume that if Trump existed as a middle aged guy in the 1930s, he would totally be on board with Hitler and his policies. 

Trump is just as fanatic as any fascist, but the American culture kinda puts a lid on his fanaticism. He can't go too far. 

At the same time, Trump is more of a con artist than a pure fascist because he much too selfish to dedicate himself like Hitler. So he has all this fascist tendencies. But he mixes them with his business mindset to get what he wants.. 

I'd describe this behavior as an opportunistic fascist who uses his mafia logic and tactics to get what he wants meanwhile bamboozling the audience with his fascist ideology. 

 

 

Great points; and it's worthwhile to keep the Constrains placed on him in mind when considering the question. While I mostly agree with you, I would push back a bit to point out that while all Fascists are Authoritarians, not all Authoritarians are necessarily fascists. A brutal mob boss who has people killed is an Authoritarian, but not necessarily a Fascist.

While Trump is undoubtedly an authoritarian, I don't know if he has a coherent enough set of beliefs for the Fascism label to be %100 accurate (too selfish to devote himself to anything, as you correctly pointed out). Which is why he strikes me more as an opportunist who just happened to latch on to proto-Fascism because it was in his self interest to do so. Which is why I'm not sure whether or not the fascist label is helpful or counter productive for framing the discussion around Trump.

[Yog]

3 hours ago, DocWatts said:

 Which is why I'm not sure whether or not the fascist label is helpful or counter productive for framing the discussion around Trump.

Smells counter productive to me, since most people carry a lot of cultural baggage regarding that word, or the "nazi" word.

Regardless if its left leaning people or right leaning people, there is a high risk that it will trigger them and will pull them into fight-or-flight state, where ofc loss of sovereignty will happen and sub-personality/archetypal possession will occur. In the end you will end up talking to automatic archetypal program instated of with the actual person.

[No Self]

Comparisons to Hitler have always been viewed negatively in political discourse since Hitler = bad. The biggest difference was that Hitler advocated expansionist policies in taking over other countries, along with exterminating minorities who had been demonised via propaganda. Trump's philosophy is the opposite, and would ultimately manifest in something closer to the isolationism of East Germany, walls and all. Lots of deportations and/or minorities being beaten into submission. He does not appear to stand for much beyond his own glorification and infamy, and the underlying fury of racial tensions seems to be a vessel that he uses regularly.

I have compared Trump to Jim Jones before. And Benito Mussolini with his attempt at making Rome great again. But even this may not be particularly constructive given the main problem is having a large part of the population incapable of constructive discourse that acknowledge established facts. Frustrating as it may be, hyperbole on our part does not help.