The authentic self of a serial killer

[tatsumaru]

I keep wondering about the psychopathology behind the concept of normalcy and the tragedy this idea has brought on to the authenticity of humankind. Yes the authentic self is clearly a thing, yes people are all unique and each one with their unique path unfolding, and yet I can't comprehend whether a serial killer, as he kills for pleasure or validation, is expressing his true authentic self or a deformed ego. It seems pretty authentic to be honest - a lot of these people are non-conformists, believe rules are an illusion and start entertaining murderous fantasies from early childhood.

On the other hand how can anyone who is authentic and heart-centric be driven to kill for pleasure? That is a crime against the higher Self and the Cosmos.

There is this story about a brigand called Aṅgulimāla, who was also a serial killer and had a necklace made out of the fingers of his victims. One day he met the Buddha on the road and attempted to kill him, but couldn't reach him, no matter how much he tried chasing him. Impressed by this he became Buddha's student, realized the mistakes of his way, repented and asked for forgiveness of all the families of his victims and eventually realized enlightenment.

All that being said - what do you think - can a desire for murder be authentic or is it a form of ignorance?

Cheers.

[Preety_India]

Even if he authentically feels that way, it's because his conscience is corrupt. 

A corrupt conscience will defend and justify corrupt intentions and actions. 

 

But a pure conscience won't 

 

 

[tatsumaru]

Come on guys, more is needed.

[blankisomeone]

Idk

it's authentically unconscious lol

[No Self]

If you read up on serial killers, you will find that many of them had childhoods full of mayhem and extreme abuse. (And likewise for many other notorious historical figures like Joseph Stalin or Adolph Hitler.) The part of the brain responsible for empathy becomes completely disabled, making it impossible for them to be restrained by any sort of sympathy or guilt. It is a recipe for extreme behaviour.

Biographics is a channel that has covered many such cases in depth.

 It has been said that the pathological ego is the same thing as you or I, just taken to the ultimate extreme. All of humanity's evils, including collective ones such as the Holocene mass extinction event, have the same egoic origin of lacking respect and lacking conscience. This is also what creates a world where extreme child abuse that gives rise to the serial killer phenomenon is possible.

Being constructive, it is important to acknowledge the behaviour of the lowest people as a part of ourselves that we normally prefer to project elsewhere. This helps us to understand that healing the world to the best of our ability is a natural outcome of real development away from egocentrism.

Though it is important for certain people to be behind bars, the part of us that likes to judge serial killers and the like is itself the ego.

[lmfao]

It's deformed ego. 

All the unholy factors lined up to make a monster. Extremely bad environment growing up, combined with possibly bad genes. 

These serial killers, the killing is their form of unhealthy coping and expression for whatever negative feelings they have. It's not authentic, it's cowardice to face oneself and face truth. 

 

In extreme cases, their level of consciousness is so unbelievably low, they're mentally ill and they may as well be walking corpses. 

---

Now on a slightly different note. I think one can separate the general notion of murder or killing from pathology of a serial killer (who kills for the sake of actualising some violent or sexual fantasy) 

I think that for a human, the desire to murder for the sake of murder "isn't authentic". 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by lmfao

[sholomar]

Read books on serial killers, psychlology, and/or brain chemistry if you want the answers you seek. It's a combination of factors including upbringing, being bullied, a loner, etc. that make a person kill for the first time, and if it gives them pleasure and not disgust, this will drive them to do it over and over, like any other fetish or addiction.   There's a very specific psychological profile virtually all serial killers have that the FBI/CIA have nailed down. 

For me understanding psychology and brain chemistry/function really helped kick start my own personal development. Simply reading non-dual texts didn't do it for me. I had extreme health anxiety for awhile so reading about the amygdala, fear response, desensitization, parasympathetic response, etc. allowed me to cure my own anxiety and eliminate panic attacks, but really helped me understand why everyone else behaves the way they do also.  Just another piece of the puzzle for my own growth... I can see why serial killers end up that way in part thanks to this knowledge.

Edited October 1, 2020 by sholomar

[Lyubov]

It's an unfortunate combination of abuse and psychological trauma mixing with a sort of personality that copes with projecting/acting outward. Not everyone who experiences problems growing up though turns out like this so I think psychopathology plays a role. This was a somewhat important human trait back in the day when survival was much more brutal but we have evolved beyond it mostly. Even today some people might excel in certain fields and live productive and ethical lives being a psychopath. It's a combination of a lot of things that come together. I think the vast majority of people who commit crimes can be healed but there are a few that all humanity can do is isolate them away from the general population to keep people safe. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Lyubov

[tatsumaru]

Actually there are a lot of serial killers who grew up in loving families and normal environments. They had brothers and sisters who turned out fine and those serial killers were like aliens in those families. While child abuse and harm can certainly contribute to the development of a psychopath I don't think that's the root cause.

[tsuki]

@tatsumaru 

No human that has gone through the work of exploring their depths and discovered the exquisite joy of being truly unique would take another person's life for mere entertainment, or gratification. Taking another's life to validate your own existence is the polar opposite of truly understanding your own uniqueness. The true self is always enough.

Psychopathy is a mental disorder for a reason (other than the whims of the scientific community). Severe early childhood trauma can leave you unable to reach down to your depths because of the amount of pain that you have to process. Especially if you deliberately killed your emotional sensitivity and you took that pain out on every single person in your life that dared to love you. Especially if you grew up in an environment where violence was normalized, or even encouraged. Especially if ignoring the social norms was a badge of honor,  wit, or group identity. Especially if you told yourself for the whole life that seeking help is a sign of weakness. Going through all of these statements in reverse order and actually feeling them just to get to the bottom where you were abused and feeling that abuse to process it is too much to ask from any human. This is why society contains these sorts of people in jails.

Serial killers are not authentic. They are who they are because it is impossible for them to acknowledge themselves.

Edited October 1, 2020 by tsuki

[Lyubov]

56 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

Actually there are a lot of serial killers who grew up in loving families and normal environments. They had brothers and sisters who turned out fine and those serial killers were like aliens in those families. While child abuse and harm can certainly contribute to the development of a psychopath I don't think that's the root cause.

Do you have any examples? I've not heard of them before. 

[tatsumaru]

11 hours ago, Lyubov said:

Do you have any examples? I've not heard of them before. 

Joanna Dennehy - Considered to come from a happy childhood.

Karla Homolka - Nothing special in her childhood.

Jeffrey Dahmer - Nothing special in his childhood.

Stephen Griffiths - Not much info about early childhood, so not sure.

Dennis Rader - nothing remarkable, His parents both worked long hours and he felt ignored. Grew up with three other brothers, none of which became a killer.

Ted Bundy claims his parents took good care of him although there was some fighting between his parents who ended up divorcing, however that doesn't sound like a big deal.

[Lyubov]

5 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

Joanna Dennehy - Considered to come from a happy childhood.

Karla Homolka - Nothing special in her childhood.

Jeffrey Dahmer - Nothing special in his childhood.

Stephen Griffiths - Not much info about early childhood, so not sure.

Dennis Rader - nothing remarkable, His parents both worked long hours and he felt ignored. Grew up with three other brothers, none of which became a killer.

Ted Bundy claims his parents took good care of him although there was some fighting between his parents who ended up divorcing, however that doesn't sound like a big deal.

I'm not entirely convinced. I think Dahmer, Rader and Bundy were all neglected. I haven't done my research but have they all gone on the record saying they didn't experience something in their childhood or earlier years? 

 

[lmfao]

21 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

 While child abuse and harm can certainly contribute to the development of a psychopath I don't think that's the root cause.

Just saying it in case, but not all psychopaths are criminals and serial killers. 

Yeah, some people seem to be biological psychopaths. Many can have an alright upbringing and be civilised into being law abiding. 
---
I feel like this topic is starting to not really go anywhere. What is your actual question here? Because I don't believe your intention is to just stop at wondering whether serial killers are born or made. Is it perhaps you're wondering what the difference between being authentic and being highly conscious? Or wondering why God made some people born like this?

I think @blankisomeone summed it up. At the theoretical max (which I don't know if many serial killers have reached), it's authentically unconscious. It's not common for a human to have this be "authentic" for them.

If we were talking about some alien species with different brain chemistry and natural psychology, then the convo might be different. But as far as the human goes, serial killing isn't generally genuine for him. Often it's something they do for pleasure or to escape pain, I highly doubt that many humans will reach enlightenment, overcome all their neurosis, and then want to go rape and murder some hookers. 

Or perhaps they're authentically unenlightened? Is lack of self-doubt and hesitation what it means to be authentic? 

Edited October 2, 2020 by lmfao

[tatsumaru]

5 hours ago, lmfao said:

Just saying it in case, but not all psychopaths are criminals and serial killers. 

Yeah, some people seem to be biological psychopaths. Many can have an alright upbringing and be civilised into being law abiding. 
---
I feel like this topic is starting to not really go anywhere. What is your actual question here? Because I don't believe your intention is to just stop at wondering whether serial killers are born or made. Is it perhaps you're wondering what the difference between being authentic and being highly conscious? Or wondering why God made some people born like this?

I think @blankisomeone summed it up. At the theoretical max (which I don't know if many serial killers have reached), it's authentically unconscious. It's not common for a human to have this be "authentic" for them.

If we were talking about some alien species with different brain chemistry and natural psychology, then the convo might be different. But as far as the human goes, serial killing isn't generally genuine for him. Often it's something they do for pleasure or to escape pain, I highly doubt that many humans will reach enlightenment, overcome all their neurosis, and then want to go rape and murder some hookers. 

Or perhaps they're authentically unenlightened? Is lack of self-doubt and hesitation what it means to be authentic? 

I don't believe in crime as defined by law as laws are arbitrary abstractions which live in a parallel universe unrelated to reality. I am not saying that everything is acceptable, just that it is up to the heart to express what is acceptable. Rules are obviously fake. There are some consequences to not following socially established rules but they are also fake as in motivated by belief systems - Giordano Bruno was burned on the stake for telling the truth - Does it matter that he was a criminal according to some belief system? Therefore my question is whether these killers when feeling like killers and wanting to kill are expressing their authentic selves or their egos. Nature is also a serial killer but there is purpose there - recycling, transformation, evolution. With human killers I can't decide what's going on there. Certainly a lot of them feel troubled which seems to be a red flag. Authentic expression doesn't result in pain.