What are some mystical causes for lack of psychedelic success?

[electroBeam]

@Nahm form = formlessness

[Chris365]

Disclaimer: brains are imaginary

I know this thread is about 'mystical causes', maybe I should start a different one

I feel a very acute difference in my state of mind and I'm creating a story about neurotransmitters.

I'm vegan (mostly raw, + tofu) for the past 3 months - used to eat lots of meat before, and I think the nutrients I was getting from previous diet are being missed while my body is adjusting. 

I used to also use kratom daily for the past almost 5 years (Sep 2014 - Jan 2020), and only found out in the past few days it's influencing neurotransmitters. When I started taking it, felt good for a few months, but it created dependency.

No meat - less tryptophan which is a precursor for serotonin; peanuts are high in tryptophan, although conversion might be less optimal, for a previous almost carnivore like me.

And lastly, also gave up caffeine for the past 4+weeks. Besides the main action on inhibiting adenosine (that makes you sleepy, so caffeine keeps you alert), it also acts on other neurotransmitters (mainly serotonin and dopamine), something like receptors are 30%  larger after chronic caffeine intake

Quote

Chronic caffeine intake has been shown to increase the receptors of serotonin (26-30% increase), GABA (65% increase), and acetylcholine (40-50%). This may contribute to the elevated mood and perceived increase in energy we feel after a coffee

(https://www.precisionnutrition.com/coffee-and-hormones#:~:text=Chronic caffeine intake has been,handy pre-workout drink).)

Yesterday was feeling a bit depressed, and was applying the spiritual band aids, like "Who is feeling depressed", "Accept anything that arises unconditionally (including depression)", and it was working to an extent.

Then, I had the brilliant idea to have an energy drink, consciously, paying attention to the effects.

It had almost psychedelic-like effects on my "become reality" meditation. The rest of the day I was very focused and conscious, even enjoying my kids company for the first time in a long time. Culminating with my first non-dual state at night listening to GP Walsh and becoming the hearing-knowing of his words.

I'm off all addictions now (kratom and caffeine), will keep experimenting with caffeine sparingly to influence my state of consciousness.

Sorry for the long rant

Peace 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Chris365

[Truthwillwin]

Having expectations means you are in the seeking mind which stops you from going deeper.

Or reality thought you aren't ready, or just you don't need more opening as you are going fast enough by yourself, I once smoked half a gram of weed and it did absolutely nothing, whereas in other times were it felt more appropriate a few puffs got me loaded.

Like, you don't want to go to fast even, you want to remain balanced in your life, this stuff is not child's play and you are suppose to be able to enjoy your sober process and progress as well, not be a junkie ^^.

[Vittorio]

On 27.9.2020 at 11:54 PM, Forestluv said:

I’ve found psychedelics to be a terrible personal development tool. Their value for me is trans-personal. If I go into a trip thinking I’m going to enter another world and pull out some ‘goodies’ for my personal life, I will be disappointed.  

Well, you're technically not entering a new world.

Think about yourself as a giant radio antenna which is tuned on specific frequences.

By taking psychedelics, you are tuning yourself on other frequences. This means you'll get access to other aspects of the same reality, exactly as if you were changing frequences on your radio.

Each psychedelic tune you in differences frequencies.

On the top of that there are many other things to consider, e.g.:

- Tolerance and sensibility to that specific psychedelic/psychedelic class

- Your current mindsets

- How many trips you did in the past

- Your current awareness level

- Your level of spiritual preparation

- Your level of evolution

- Your kind of mind structure (e.g. many people have no visions during LSD trips)

 

I, at your opposite, find psychedelics to be giant "unlockers" which allowed me to improve my life situation, turbocharge my spiritual development in incredible ways, improve my baseline awareness and diminish brutally the amount of self-deceptions, monkey mind and constant distractions/multitasking in very little time (paired with contemplation/journaling, meditation and taking action) ofc.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Vittorio
Added more text + correctures

[electroBeam]

@Chris365 yeah thanks, placebo has a huge effect. 

@Truthwillwin yeah but look at how many people go to the hospital from taking psychedelics. Its not like the psychedelics go 'oh you're not ready so I'm not gonna work for you'. They work regardless of where ya at. 

I took cinnamon oil with magic mushrooms the other day, and that worked super well. (Shamans tend to take magic mushrooms with cinnamon oil) so it must just be biochem. That's for me personally, not saying others should take magic mushrooms with cinnamon. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by electroBeam

[Jo96]

If you smoke weed Regularly that can make it harder to break through in my experience. Conversely if you smoke weed during an experience that can do magic.

[Forestluv]

13 hours ago, Vittorio said:

Well, you're technically not entering a new world.

Yea, in the context of everything. Every state of consciousness is a state of consciousness. 

I'm speaking in the context of a personal perspective in which the 'person' dissolves and there is 'trans-personal' awareness. From the perspective of the person this may seem like 'another world'. Most novices see a sober state and psychedelic state as being very different - like two different worlds / realities. Ime and observations, it takes a lot of psychedelic experience for those 'two worlds' to merge such that there is sober tripping and psychedelic sobriety. 

13 hours ago, Vittorio said:

I, at your opposite, find psychedelics to be giant "unlockers" which allowed me to improve my life situation, turbocharge my spiritual development in incredible ways, improve my baseline awareness and diminish brutally the amount of self-deceptions, monkey mind and constant distractions/multitasking in very little time (paired with contemplation/journaling, meditation and taking action) ofc.

Who/what is this 'my' that is spoken of?

Psychedelics can have great benefits at the personal / human level. I'm referring to the magic trick being revealed. 

[electroBeam]

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I'm speaking in the context of a personal perspective in which the 'person' dissolves and there is 'trans-personal' awareness.

That's all happening within the present moment too

3 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Ime and observations, it takes a lot of psychedelic experience for those 'two worlds' to merge such that there is sober tripping and psychedelic sobriety. 

IME, it doesn't take a lot of psychedelic experience, it takes a lot of genuine sober methods like meditation and contemplation. There are people out there who are absolutely stunning in terms of the psychedelic experience, over 500+ trips, tried everything from meth + LSD to nitrous to datura and salvia,  people who I admire deeply and think are amazing human beings, yet somehow they still think there is stuff outside of the present moment. Yet they probably know way more things about how consciousness works then some no self realized being, or some self realized being even. 

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

That's all happening within the present moment too

Not in the context I'm using. I'm drawing a distinction between being immersed in a psychological personal construct and consciousness transcendent to that. 

22 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

IME, it doesn't take a lot of psychedelic experience, it takes a lot of genuine sober methods like meditation and contemplation. There are people out there who are absolutely stunning in terms of the psychedelic experience, over 500+ trips, tried everything from meth + LSD to nitrous to datura and salvia,  people who I admire deeply and think are amazing human beings, yet somehow they still think there is stuff outside of the present moment. Yet they probably know way more things about how consciousness works then some no self realized being, or some self realized being even. 

I can only speak for myself. I meditated relatively seriously for 20+ years. I've been involved with various buddhist groups and retreats. My first trip blew it all away. I expanded much more in my first 5 hr trip than thousands of hours meditating for 20+ years. That's how strongly I resonated with psychedelics. 

I've met some high level spiritual people within certain 'realms', yet I've never met anyone in person who has realized Nothing/Everything through traditional meditation. 

"The present moment" is a concept that needs a construct of a timeline for contrast. Without the construct of a past and future, there is no present moment. It's a great realization and has practical value, yet I don't get too hung up on it. Similar to "no-self". 

Not every mind resonates with psychedelics. I've had extreme fortune with them. In terms of SD, they took me from Orange/Green to Yellow/Turquoise. It was temporarily rocketing up at first, yet after a couple years it's been stably integrated and embodied.

And of course this is all a story happening in the present moment  

[electroBeam]

40 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Not in the context I'm using. I'm drawing a distinction between being immersed in a psychological personal construct and consciousness transcendent to that. 

I'm struggling to understand the value of that context, and why you're operating in that context within this particular dialogue. The context I'm using doesn't assume an I. It simply observes THIS. Which seems like a more appropriate context considering this dialogue is about what's epistemically true, rather than managing the I thought. 

40 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I've met some high level spiritual people within certain 'realms', yet I've never met anyone in person who has realized Nothing/Everything through traditional meditation. 

Plenty of people who have memories(diluted) of certain realizations from psychedelics, but don't actually feel it in their bones. You can talk to someone who had a profound experience of being one with the universe, but that experience is limited to a memory. And that memory operates WITHIN their dualistic worldview. And because of that it seems to be beyond the present moment, much like how materialism is beyond the present moment. And that leads to all sorts of confusions like oneness is something to chase or is outside of THIS. And I'd consider someone operating that way as not having a realization, but just a profound memory. There is a huge difference between a memory of oneness, and operating within a oneness worldview all the time(not saying time is real, thats just a limitation of this dialogue). 

40 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

"The present moment" is a concept that needs a construct of a timeline for contrast. Without the construct of a past and future, there is no present moment. It's a great realization and has practical value, yet I don't get too hung up on it. Similar to "no-self". 

You're never gonna describe the absolute perfectly. You just have to give up trying. Like for example, IME the present moment doesn't have a timeline. All time is happening now. In other words, jesus is literally born as soon as the thought of jesus arises inside the present moment. Yet you could pick errors from that explanation too. And every explanation. 

40 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Not every mind resonates with psychedelics. I've had extreme fortune with them that I rarely see in others. 

Yep sounds like it, agree that they are amazing. Although lots of people get value from it, so maybe lots of people do resonate with them, just not at the same level as you. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by electroBeam

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

I'm struggling to understand the value of that context, and why you're operating in that context within this particular dialogue. The context I'm using doesn't assume an I. 

Yea, that was my point about psyches being a poor tool for personal develop. If there is no person, there is no person to develop.

13 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

 

Plenty of people who have memories(diluted) of certain realizations from psychedelics, but don't actually feel it in their bones. You can talk to someone who had a profound experience of being one with the universe, but that experience is limited to a memory. And that memory operates WITHIN their dualistic worldview. And because of that it seems to be beyond the present moment, much like how materialism is beyond the present moment. And that leads to all sorts of confusions like oneness is something to chase or is outside of THIS. And I'd consider someone operating that way as not having a realization, but just a profound memory. There is a huge difference between a memory of oneness, and operating within a oneness worldview all the time(not saying time is real, thats just a limitation of this dialogue).

Sure, I can see that happening.

13 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

IME the present moment doesn't have a timeline.

It’s the present moment relative to what? A banana?