"choice"!

[allislove]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

If there is no chooser.. What is choice? 

this.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

What is choice? 

A human construct that has evolutionary and practical value. 

[allislove]

30 minutes ago, allislove said:

this.

There is no chooser? Yes, there is no separate entity that chooses this thing over that thing. Everything is one.
There is a choice? Yes, our true nature is pure freedom, free to imagine anything. Creation is a choice, this is a choice.

The thought arises&passes. There is a choice to let the thought go or cling to it. That's how creation happens. 

 

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, allislove said:

The thought arises&passes. There is a choice to let the thought go or cling to it. That's how creation happens. 
 

No. Who chooses to let thoughts go or cling to them?  You assume a seperate thinker who is doing this. Thoughts come and go.. They can get stuck.. Or they can go easily.. No one is making them stick or go. 

 

48 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

 human construct that has evolutionary and practical value. 

Yes but the construct is so obviously unrepresentitve of reality.  I explaind it in the OP and in the post in the previous page.   Not a single internal or external process that happens in your body-mind is done by "you".  One minute of self-observation is enough to reveal that.   So how did the human mind come up with this construct? 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Someone here

[Moksha]

Interesting study on the illusion of free will:

Quote

In one of the studies undertaken by Adam Bear and Paul Bloom, of Yale University, the test subjects were shown five white circles on a computer monitor. They were told to choose one of the circles before one of them lit up red.

The participants were then asked to describe whether they’d picked the correct circle, another one, or if they hadn’t had time to actually pick one.

Statistically, people should have picked the right circle about one out of every five times. But they reported getting it right much more than 20 per cent of the time, going over 30 per cent if the circle turned red very quickly.

The scientists suggest that the findings show that the test subjects’ minds were swapping around the order of events, so that it appeared that they had chosen the right circle – even if they hadn’t actually had time to do so.

The idea of free will may have arisen because it is a useful thing to have, giving people a feeling of control over their lives and allowing for people to be punished for wrongdoing.

But that same feeling can go awry, the scientists wrote in the Scientific American magazine. It may be important for people to feel they are in control of their lives, for instance, but distortions in that same process might make people feel that they have control over external processes like the weather.

The scientists cautioned that the illusion of choice might only apply to choices that are made quickly and without too much thought. But it might also be “pervasive and ubiquitous — governing all aspects of our behaviour, from our most minute to our most important decisions. Whatever the case may be, our studies add to a growing body of work suggesting that even our most seemingly ironclad beliefs about our own agency and conscious experience can be dead wrong.”

Edited September 27, 2020 by Moksha

[allislove]

Just now, Someone here said:

No. Who chooses to let thoughts go or cling to them?  You assume a seperate thinker who is doing this. Thoughts come and go.. They can get stuck.. Or they can go easily.. No one is making them stick or go. 

Who wants to be right? Just listen to this song and relax:

It's not about being right, it's about feeling good  

[Someone here]

@allislove dude lol now you're getting weird.  But I guess you have no choice. 

[Nahm]

24 minutes ago, Someone here said:

No. Who chooses to let thoughts go or cling to them?  You assume a seperate thinker who is doing this. Thoughts come and go.. They can get stuck.. Or they can go easily.. No one is making them stick or go. 

 

That is a literal example of what you were just told happening, right under your nose. The intention is to be correct that there is no self. The sacrifice is expanding beyond no self. The means is the reaction, the ‘cling’. There’s a solid reasoning folks don’t call it No Self Realization. Realizing there is no Santa is not realizing how the presents end up under the tree.

[Someone here]

11 minutes ago, Nahm said:

That is a literal example of what you were just told happening, right under your nose. 

OK you mean I'm getting stubborn and stuck In my opinion?   Yeah maybe.. But as I said it's just happening..it's not that there is a me who is getting stubborn or clinging to thoughts.. Clinging just happens.

I swear I wrote that comment while preparing my omelette. ?    As you observe the words just unfolding out of your mind and your mouth.. You come to realize people don't cling their opinions. They don't shape their opinions. Actually no one has any opinions. No one actually knows what are they talking about.  Because talking just happens lol. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Someone here

[Nahm]

@Someone here

Cool. It’s your omelette my man. 

[Forestluv]

44 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Yes but the construct is so obviously unrepresentitve of reality.  I explaind it in the OP and in the post in the previous page.   Not a single internal or external process that happens in your body-mind is done by "you".  One minute of self-observation is enough to reveal that.   

According to your description of reality, sure. Lisa Cairns occasionally talks about a similiar construct of reality as the one ‘you’ are creating (in this context, aka what is appearing). Good stuff.

[Someone here]

12 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

According to your description of reality, sure. Lisa Cairns occasionally talks about a similiar construct of reality as the one ‘you’ are creating (in this context, aka what is appearing). Good stuff.

I don't think I'm "constructing" this.   It can be a construction if one is adding something extra on top of the actual process.  So in terms of thought process as an example.. The assumption that " I "think my thoughts is a construction.. As there is no "I" to be found separate from thoughts that is creating them. However When it's described as a stream of thoughts arising and going without assuming any "entity" in charge of the process.. That's not a construct as it's actually representing of the actual process. 

[Forestluv]

24 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I don't think I'm "constructing" this.   It can be a construction if one is adding something extra on top of the actual process.  So in terms of thought process as an example.. The assumption that " I "think my thoughts is a construction.. As there is no "I" to be found separate from thoughts that is creating them. However When it's described as a stream of thoughts arising and going without assuming any "entity" in charge of the process.. That's not a construct as it's actually representing of the actual process. 

Within this creation, sure. I don’t disagree.

This gets into what is ‘real’ and what is ‘imagined’. We can assign ‘realness’ (actual) to the creation if we like. Or we can call it imaginary. I’m cool either way since they both deconstruct to the same thing. 

In the context of consciousness insights, ‘you’ are tapping into one of The Biggies that allows new explorations and relating to reality. Few human minds pass through this gate. In this area, I prefer to hold the intellectual handles loosely. 

[RedLine]

just language games bro

There are teachers that explain the Absolute in this two different ways: you are Everything vs you are Nothing. It looks like opposites but they point out to the same thing. In the same way, it is possible to say you choose everything (you are everything) vs you cannot choose any thing (you don't exist) and both are also pointing to the same. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by RedLine

[Fran11]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

If there is no chooser.. What is choice? 

You are right about there not being an indivudal chooser.

But to say there's no choice makes it seem like the stream conciousness is a rigid mechanical thing that goes on in a linear deterministic way.

In fact, the intrinsec intelligence of conciousness, without a central agent doing it, is drawing particular posibilities from a pool of infinte potenial. That's how reality is created.

This you could call "choice" or not, that's just depends on how you want to use language.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Fran11

[Someone here]

16 minutes ago, RedLine said:

just language games bro

There are teachers that explain the Absolute in this two different ways: you are Everything vs you are Nothing. It looks like opposites but they point out to the same thing. In the same way, it is possible to say you choose everything (you are everything) vs you cannot choose any thing (you don't exist) and both are also pointing to the same. 

Is it your experience that you are everything?  Are you experiencing yourself as that?  Do you think of yourself as a separate individual or as everything? 

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

You are right about there not being an indivudal chooser.

But to say there's no choice makes it seem like the stream conciousness is a rigid mechanical thing that goes on in a linear deterministic way.

In fact, the intrinsec intelligence of conciousness, without a central agent doing it, is drawing particular posibilities from a pool of infinte potenial. That's how reality is created.

This you could call "choice" or not, that's just depends on how you want to use language.

No I'm not saying it's deterministic. It's a spontaneous creation. You can call it random. When you experience a thought it is the case that most of the time there is no casual link between them. That makes you deny the determination as well.

One thought about America' s war on Iraq.. Next thought about you playing golf with dolphins lol... That's more randomness to me then it is a determination as it's hard to see the causal link between each arising thought. 

[Fran11]

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

No I'm not saying it's deterministic. It's a spontaneous creation.

We're on the same page then.

To say there's no choice to me sounds kinda rigid, like you are looking at it too much from the Ego POV.

Conciousness does have a choice

Edited September 27, 2020 by Fran11

[Someone here]

@Fran11 there is no choice tho. You are not choosing anything. And I mean anything.

You didn't choose your birth as this particular human.. In this particular world.. In this particular part of the world.. In this particular Era.. To this particular family.. With this particular genetics.. With this particular gender.. With this particular look.. Yada yada..you didn't choose the language that you are speaking.. You didn't choose your upbringing.. You didn't choose your cultural conditioning.. You don't choose your heart  beat.. You don't choose your thoughts.. You don't choose your actions.. You don't choose your reactions.. You don't choose what you agree with.. You don't choose what you disagree with.. You don't choose your beliefs your desires your traits your moods your habits your chances your anything lol...simply because you are not real as an individual you yourself are a thought or at a best a continuity of conditioned thoughts been shaped by your environment. 

It's not necessarily that this process is fated. It just is what it is. However it is you don't choose it. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Someone here

[Fran11]

@Someone here Like I sad, that's from the Ego's POV.

I'm not disagreeing with you, it's a truthful perspective, but it's not the only true or useful one.

We all can learn and have richer conversations if we are open about exploring different perspectives instead of pushing a petty one.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Fran11