My tolerance for Trump supporters is at an all-time low. Is this normal?

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, No Self said:

Perhaps the ideal personality would combine the best of both worlds

Healthy stage Green incorporates a stage Blue foundation.

It's not an either/or choice.

[Fran11]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Healthy stage Green incorporates a stage Blue foundation.

In my experience Green is prone to denying healthy asspects of Blue and Orange.

Integration comes with Yellow.

In my country it's really problematic to have one third of the population in Red, and Green demonizing the order of Blue. 

I understand that in first world it works different because there's much less Red.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Fran11

[Gidiot]

Healthy green integrates the healthier stages of blue and orange and red and purple, otherwise it isn’t true healthy green. I still have to integrate healthy aspects of orange and red where as blue was easier for me.  Green can ignore healthy aspects of blue but that isn’t healthy green. 

also after making that point it would be nice to provide an example

 

there is also healthy blue and unhealthy blue. Order isn’t always healthy just like some hierarchies are more conscious than others.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Gidiot

[Fran11]

31 minutes ago, Gidiot said:

Healthy green integrates the healthier stages of blue and orange and red and purple, otherwise it isn’t true healthy green.

In practice, that's rare. 

31 minutes ago, Gidiot said:

also after making that point it would be nice to provide an example

LOL Really?

Red rapes and kills you and your familiy 

Is that simple. Really try to imagine what's like to live in a society >30% Red.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Fran11

[Gidiot]

@Fran11 taking about your first statement obviously 

“In my experience Green is prone to denying healthy asspects of Blue and Orange.”

 

healthy aspects of blue to me are early democracy and the legal system.

and of orange the strengthening of democracy, the science based approach to medicine, technology and infrastructure as well as innovation and some forms of competition like sports and competing for the best candidate for a job

its rare that a stage green person would deny this

Edited September 26, 2020 by Gidiot

[Leo Gura]

41 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

In my experience Green is prone to denying healthy asspects of Blue and Orange.

That's the problem. Your experience is woefully lopsided.

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the problem. Your experience is woefully lopsided.

C'mon, you yourself said until Yellow all Stages basically misunderstand and hate each other.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Fran11 said:

C'mon, you yourself said until Yellow all Stages basically misunderstand and hate each other.

It's complicated

[Gidiot]

@Fran11 that’s like saying liberals and and conservatives are the same because they both misunderstand each other

[Leo Gura]

Liberals understand conservatives a lot better than conservatives understand liberals.

Because liberal is a higher stage of development.

[Gidiot]

@Leo Gura Agreed, before your content I always had this hunch, it think because at the liberal stages it stops being so much about power an authority, and there is a willingness and curiosity to explore different perspectives rather than your own. 

[Fran11]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Liberals understand conservatives a lot better than conservatives understand liberals.

Because liberal is a higher stage of development.

I understad that in a developed society Green is almost a neat positive with no downsides.

But in societies with low socioeconomic developement, advanced ideas get imported fast becasue of globalization and the country may not ready for them. 

You yourself have said many times that one cannot skip stages.

In a society with 5-10% Red, maybe reacting against the order of Blue is not problematic. But with 35% Red, it is. Please really contemplate this before dismissing me as a conservative.

I agree with Green values. I made a post about Gender Deconstruction and you took me as a crazy radical liberal. I'm even trying to become a vegan believe it or not  

But at least in my country I do notice the downsides of a part of the young population jumping to Green too fast without integrating lower stages. If they did, there would be no problem, but in practice it doesn't happen.

I'm open to dropping this perspective if someone explains why it's incorrect instead of deffending Green as an absolute good without taking the context into account. That's a tier one attitude, we're better than that.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Fran11

[Fran11]

1 hour ago, Gidiot said:

@Fran11 that’s like saying liberals and and conservatives are the same because they both misunderstand each other

Cute strawman.

[Gidiot]

@Fran11 Well all I have to go on are your words, what examples of “green” in your country has overlooked blue and jumped straight there.
 

Green isn’t an absolute good but you seem to be criticizing it as if the kids in your country should be embracing blue ideas over green, I just don’t buy that.

Yes you progress through stages but you can also accelerate your development with the right teachings. No one says you need to be solidly blue to response to red and solidly orange to respond to blue etc etc,  Although that is an effective way. You just have to embody each in an effective way that you can learn from. if the kids don’t understand spiral dynamics from their level of development that’s not their fault. It’s a bit of a hidden model that you gotta dig to find. That’s on us to promote it and then to seek it out

my point is I’d rather have my kids sympathetic to a green person than a blue even if they don’t understand spiral dynamics.

I consider myself to be mostly green/orange/yellow/ turquoise mix but I don’t have to be solidly turquoise to entertain thoughts of non duality and be interested in it. 
 

 

maybe some of those kids will move out of the country or be better suited to challenge blue with green wisdom, I never thought I was ever really a solidly blue person and yet I think I have progressed through  it. 

Not every response to red has to come from blue. And certainly not every green or blue or red person/government looks the same. 
 

im interested in hearing about the shortcuts they are taking and how stage blue ideology better suits a response to red than green?

Ultimately it’s hard to say, this stuff isn’t an exact science but in an undeveloped country green is still important, there are many people who follow this forum from undeveloped countries and it’s not going to be stage blue that saves them, it may build a foundation for the work but order won’t save you as much as education and compassion if anything your Anecdote is a sign of progress, how many of those kids would’ve been saying those ideas just 20-30 years ago.
 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Gidiot

[Fran11]

@Gidiot

I'm sorry but I don't feel you have understood my perspective.

I'm NOT advocating for solid Blue. But it is often demonized by Green and it's healthy asspects are neglected. That allows for a lot of Red barbarity.

Of course Green is of much value and even more so. I'm tired of repeating this. Seems that many of you guys don't even give the benefit of the doubt to anything you think it is slightly conservative-sounding. If you are gonna keep misunderstanding and implying that don't even bother to repy.

I advocate for a healthy Green which integrates the lower Stages. But in practice what happens is that teens and young adults (the top wealthier third of society at least) just absorbe Green ideas (which is good) but they start off from there without any sense of why the lower stages came to be in the first place.

The main point is that demonizing specifically the order of Blue in a still highly Red enviroment doesn't work.

You cannot deal with the barbarity of Red only using the soft Green aproach. Red is fucking brutal and ruthless. It's hard to really have sense of this if you live in a developed society.

There is value in Green's compassion for Red of course. But it's very naive to think that will be enough when Red is still so prevalent. They will still rape and kill you, which is what happens on a daily basis.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Fran11

[Karla]

@GroovyGuru It's a good call to protect your energy & trust your gut. You're allowed to have standards. It doesn't make sense to force yourself to hang out with people who make you feel awful. You don't have to be friends with everyone. 

[Eph75]

@Gidiot A good example of green potential lack of effectivity with red problems would be e.g. the Swedish approach to stage red crime that has surged with immigration.

There have been approaches with pastry, lemonade and reasoning with criminals with a naive expectation that they have, despite being at the level of development that they are, a choice and that they just need to listen to understand. 

Need I say that it has and still is failing?

"Vi har varit naiva..." 

In this sense, red needs a blue approach, which is more effective with conformation into a system that maintain order. In a sense hard-meets-hard which is needed at the time.

Of course blue has other issues and will not give the results green expects, but is, more effective for that single purpose, although eggs may be broken in the process. Moving through stages have never been easy. Nor is it today in the western world. 

Enter yellow, who can act blue as needed in order to produce the results wanted. Integration is then evident to be the merging of the positive aspects of different cultures, not blind merge, for the sake of a "greenie" idea of all peoples expressions being equally good.

Good is relevant to what is needed and wanted to be achieved. Blind integration expects to accept red stage crime to be embraced as a new accepted order, merging with Swedish standards, resulting in a regress, which clearly is not acceptable. 

Assimilation sounds like a dirt little word, especially if you are ideological green, as it is implying eradicating personal expression in order to fit into a different mold and that is equivalent to thinking less of, and respecting other humans less. 

Assimilation in regards to the negative aspects of red, while at the same time fostering and reinforcing the positive traits of red, which will accelerate into an integration process, but green, until turning towards yellow, is not able to see this clearly. 

So it's not so much being blue as acting in a way that is effective with red and that in a sense uses traits that blue uses to overcome stage red problems that is needed. 

But now we're talking about spiral wizardry which is not available until tier 2 of development. 

Teaching the spiral to earlier stages is meaningless if the expected outcome is solving problems, rather use the knowledge and understanding the spiral has given you to approach blue differently and to be whom you need to be in that moment to produce desired outcomes.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Eph75

[Fran11]

11 minutes ago, Eph75 said:

So it's not so much being blue as acting in a way that is effective with red and that in a sense uses traits that blue uses to overcome stage red problems that is needed. 

This.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Fran11

[Eph75]

@Fran11 sorry, I hid the reply you're quotine to look it over, and don't know how to bring it back, if even possible 

@Any mod, feel free to unhide my post. I misunderstood the function, thought you could unhide yourself. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Eph75