Free Will

[Moksha]

Do we have free will?

In the Bhagavad Gita, it says:

"Those who know this truth, whose consciousness is unified, think always, "I am not the doer." While seeing or hearing, touching or smelling; eating, moving about, or sleeping; breathing or speaking, letting go or holding on, even opening or closing the eyes, they understand that these are only the movements of the senses among sense objects." (5:8-9)

Even when we disidentify with form and realize our unity with Being:

"The distinctions of caste, guna, and karma have come from me. I am their cause, but I myself am changeless and beyond all action." (4:12)

If Source created all things, wouldn't Source be responsible for all things?

To me, it seems we only have free will in the sense that we ultimately are Source. And yet I remember that when I first awoke, it was preceded by a conscious willingness to surrender. Maybe it was simply the Source that is me reaching for reunion with the Source that pervades the Universe and every being in it?

I think of suffering as life's way of shaking us from slumber. But does anyone "choose" to wake up or is it something that happens to us?

[Godhead]

Yes and no, depends on your perspective.

[Moksha]

Care to expand? How yes and how no?

[Someone here]

2 hours ago, Moksha said:

Do (we1)( have2) (free3) (will4) ? 

Reality is nondual. 

What's the boundary between you and your will? 

What's the difference between having/owning and being?. 

There is no "we" as something separate from the rest of creation.  there is no thing "willing" your thoughts.. actions.. breaths.. heart beats etc. 

And freedom is an absolute.. It is free to be anything even to be not free. 

 

[Moksha]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Reality is nondual. 

What's the boundary between you and your will? 

What's the difference between having/owning and being?. 

There is no "we" as something separate from the rest of creation.  there is no thing "willing" your thoughts.. actions.. breaths.. heart beats etc. 

And freedom is an absolute.. It is free to be anything even to be not free. 

I agree with you. Ultimate reality is unitary, infinite, nonconceptual, and timeless. It is the convergence of all choices and of no choices.

From that perspective, there is no "you" and there is no "personal choice". Individual free will is an illusion.

How then do we explain the law of karma? If our life experience is the result of the choices we make, and we continue to suffer until we transcend, is this not a contradiction? Does free will exist only within the world of form? Or even here, is it nothing but a series of causes and effects, which ultimately originate in Source?

And what about responsibility? Are we responsible for our own awakening? If not why are we here in this forum pursuing the path of an awakened state? If there is no free will, aside from protecting society, how do we justify condemning criminals when they had no part in their own crimes? Should we never apologize for anything, or seek forgiveness for "our" mistakes?

[Someone here]

@Moksha Well you just gave me a nice list of questions lol... I don't really like tackling questions partially.. You can watch some Bashar videos and listen to cool reincarnation theories.. But if you want actual answers here you go.. 

.. 

17 minutes ago, Moksha said:

How then do we explain the law of karma? If our life experience is the result of the choices we make, and we continue to suffer until we transcend, is this not a contradiction? 

This is just a story. A limiting story to keep you asleep.  

 

17 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Does free will exist only within the world of form

Reality is nondual.  There is no such thing as free will. Can you point to it? Touch it? See it?  Or is it just a concept in your mind?.  It's not determined either. That's also a concept in your mind. It's not random either. That's also a concept in your mind. It doesn't fall into any category or mechanism. 

The world of forms does not exist. 

You mistake the formless for a formed because of your sense of self and your constant conceptual overlaying process. What is actual is nothing. Only the mind says otherwise 

17 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Or even here, is it nothing but a series of causes and effects, which ultimately originate in Source?

Source and here are one. Cause and effects are one. 

 

17 minutes ago, Moksha said:

And what about responsibility? Are we responsible for our own awakening?

Reality is nondual. As long as you assume yourself to be something seperate from awakening that you can only get it in the future you will never wake up.. Because essentially this is a lie. You are awakening itself. 

 

17 minutes ago, Moksha said:

If not why are we here in this forum pursuing the path of an awakened state?

Because of misunderstanding. 

 

17 minutes ago, Moksha said:

? If there is no free will, aside from protecting society, how do we justify condemning criminals when they had no part in their own crimes? 

These are two separate issues.  If a dangerous snake is trying to bite you.. You kill it.. Even tho you know it has no choice..it is just being a snake doing what snakes do.. But you gotta kill it anyways., 

 

17 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Should we never apologize for anything, or seek forgiveness for "our" mistakes? 

Depends on your state of consciousness. If you in ordinary ego state of consciousness and you perceive mistakes.. You apologize. If you are conscious enough there are no mistakes...and then it won't make any difference to apologize or not. Because there is no mistakes.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Someone here

[Godhead]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

How yes and how no?

It depends from what perspective you are asking the question? What is meant by "do we/I have free will".

What is "we/I" referring to? 

I assume that you are still under the illusion of the conventional self. From that perspective, yes free will seems to exist. "You" can make decisions just as much as "You" can feel guilty about things. If you however awaken from this illusion your views on free will might differ. 

[Moksha]

@Someone here, thank you for sharing your thoughts. And sorry for all of the questions, but not really since I didn't choose to ask them

I see reincarnation as a story too. But in a broader sense, what are your thoughts on our role in the awakening process? Aspirants practice the paths of yoga to receive enlightenment, but is all of that misguided and unnecessary? Krishna approves the paths of karma yoga and raja yoga. I understand the nonduality of uitimate reality, but "we" are in a world of time and space. If it's all an illusion, why go through the motions of realizing enlightenment?

Agree with killing the snake for protection, but many criminals are punished beyond the point of protecting society from them. Are these punishments unjust since the criminals weren't responsible for their crimes?

Even following an egoic act, why apologize? If we can't control whether or not the ego is at the helm, aren't we guiltless?

Edited September 24, 2020 by Moksha

[Bulgarianspirit]

Just now, dflores321 said:

@Moksha In my experience nope. 

Its like your watching a movie but theres no you. 

Shit just keeps unfolding more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more... 

Youre doing everything, yet you have no idea how you really do it. 

In my experience you can be it, feel it, but you will never know why/how you really do this.

Its an unfolding mystery. 

I would say it is creating while simultaneously embodying every aspect of it's creation... Trying to define an infinite, all pervasive formless cosmic intelligence is hard with words...

[Moksha]

6 minutes ago, Godhead said:

It depends from what perspective you are asking the question? What is meant by "do we/I have free will".

What is "we/I" referring to? 

I assume that you are still under the illusion of the conventional self. From that perspective, yes free will seems to exist. "You" can make decisions just as much as "You" can feel guilty about things. If you however awaken from this illusion your views on free will might differ. 

It's the enlightened state I'm asking about. Once enlightened, there's no reason to apologize for prior egoic acts. Or is there? Even if we weren't responsible in the egoic state, maybe we could help others heal by apologizing for our unconscious acts.

[Moksha]

4 minutes ago, dflores321 said:

@Moksha In my experience nope. 

Its like your watching a movie but theres no you. 

Shit just keeps unfolding more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more... 

Youre doing everything, yet you have no idea how you really do it. 

In my experience you can be it, feel it, but you will never know why/how you really do this.

Its an unfolding mystery. 

This makes sense to me. My real question is what role, if any, we have in our own enlightenment? Before I woke up, I remember consciously deciding to surrender. Maybe it was just a dissolving of "little self"-will, and I was nothing more than the observer.

[Someone here]

21 minutes ago, Moksha said:

But in a broader sense, what are your thoughts on our role in the awakening process? 

My thoughts don't matter. They are just thoughts. You are a thought. Your role in the awakening process is a thought. Awakening is a thought. 

 

21 minutes ago, Moksha said:

I understand the nonduality of uitimate reality. 

If you did you wouldn't ask these questions lol. Every question implies a duality. When there is no dualities. Yeah you can keep creating duality. Or you can realize it's all one.

The answer to your questions is the substance of your questions. 

21 minutes ago, Moksha said:

but "we" are in a world of time and space. 

These are just concepts. There is no time or space or world or we. There is just the ever present presence.  You can become conscious of it right now. Since it's happening right now. And if you did that's it. You are enlightened. 

 

21 minutes ago, Moksha said:

If it's all an illusion, why go through the motions of realizing enlightenment?

Yeah why? 

 

21 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Agree with killing the snake for protection, but many criminals are punished beyond the point of protecting society from them. Are these punishments unjust since the criminals weren't responsible for their crimes?

Well yeah. But don't forget the judges themselves are also not responsible for their unjustice. ?

 

21 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Even following an egoic act, why apologize? If we can't control whether or not the ego is at the helm, aren't we guiltless?

There is no why. It doesn't matter. You can apologize or not. You are not in control. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Someone here

[Breakingthewall]

14 minutes ago, Moksha said:

This makes sense to me. My real question is what role, if any, we have in our own enlightenment? Before I woke up, I remember consciously deciding to surrender. Maybe it was just a dissolving of "little self"-will, and I was nothing more than the observer.

Who knows? The illusion is illusion, ok. But why the illusion exist? If you realize that it's a conciousness in the inmutable no time, you're going to realize that you are an illusion and the colored reality with time and space is all illusion. But illusion exist! Maybe the base of the illusion is the nothingness, but the illusion is something. It's duality? Maybe...not all of us realized the non duality, I m not doubting about it but it seems that some accept it like a dogma. About free will....In the illusion level it seems that you, as illusion , have a wall of concept that keep you isolated of the self, and you could break it or not... why? Who knows that. In a level seems that reincarnation exist, and a path of different lifes exist. How? Why? 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Breakingthewall

[Moksha]

@Someone here I get what you're saying. And you're right, nonduality means everything is One including all questions and all answers. Yet the gurus continue to teach, and aspirants continue to learn. All of that is part of the One too.

[Moksha]

19 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Who knows? The illusion is illusion, ok. But why the illusion exist? If you realize that it's a conciousness in the inmutable no time, you're going to realize that you are an illusion and the colored reality with time and space is all illusion. But illusion exist! Maybe the base of the illusion is the nothingness, but the illusion is something. It's duality? Maybe...not all of us realized the non duality, I m not doubting about it but it seems that some accept it like a dogma. About free will....In the illusion level it seems that you, as illusion , have a wall of concept that keep you isolated of the self, and you could break it or not... why? Who knows that. In a level seems that reincarnation exist, and a path of different lifes exist. How? Why? 

Is the dream not part of the dreamer? They are united, and neither would be possible without the other.

[Moksha]

15 minutes ago, dflores321 said:

@Moksha I dont have a definite answer.

The best I can say is that the unspeakable Truth/Void/Consciousness/Nothingness is just playing around. 

In this particular dream this force is becoming self-aware. 

You can feel it, there's a reorientation.

It used to be "you", now it's the void with objects in it(which are also the void). 

I agree, there's a conscious evolution within the world of form. But ultimately isn't that illusion too? Time doesn't exist in the transcendent dimension, so conscious evolution doesn't exist. Einstein showed that time is relative, rather than absolute. "Reality" depends on the perspective of the observer. It is subsumed by, yet still part of. ultimate reality.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Moksha

[Someone here]

18 minutes ago, Moksha said:

@Someone here I get what you're saying. And you're right, nonduality means everything is One including all questions and all answers. Yet the gurus continue to teach, and aspirants continue to learn. All of that is part of the One too.

Yeah so where is the problem?  It's all working out exactly as it should.. As it is.. To be more accurate.

Just be. Know yourself as the changeless watcher of the changing mind-world.     

Why you feel like you need to figure something out? What would happen if you let go of that need? Could it  be that you will find what you've been looking for when you stop looking for? 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Someone here

[Moksha]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

Yeah so where is the problem?  It's all working out exactly as it should.. As it is.. To be more accurate.

Just be. Know yourself as the changeless watcher of the changing mind-world.     

Why you feel like you need to figure something out? What would happen if you let go of that need? Could be that you will find what you've been looking when you stop looking for? 

I agree 100%. I wouldn't say thought is a need really, just another form to play with  

[Consept]

@Moksha Could you come up with a choice you can make that is completely independent of any other cause? 

[Moksha]

2 hours ago, Consept said:

@Moksha Could you come up with a choice you can make that is completely independent of any other cause? 

 

The only "choices" that feel completely independent  are those that arise out of Source. If I am Source, in a sense they are a choice. But "I" is an illusion, since Source is unified. So I can't say that I have free will at all.

But what about the double-split experiment? It almost seems like the individual photon makes a "choice" on which slit to travel through.