Material Paradigm Question

[yetineti]

I noticed that since a young age I’ve said things like ‘numbers are not real’ or ‘that’s just made up’ or ‘we just imagine it all.’

Non-Material stuff like that. Of course most people disagree with me. 
 

My hold up is, I can think non-materially in many instances but I still accept the world as an integration between imagination and physicality. Like I know that how I imagine the physical world changes how interact with it, but is that all there is to it? Seems like I’m missing something. 
 

Is there no physical world at all? Is a an entanglement of imagination and actual physicality? Did i maybe break out of the paradigm when I was 11 and saying numbers aren’t real but didn’t know what the material paradigm was so now that I do I feel like I haven’t done it yet even though I did long ago?

 

[Inliytened1]

57 minutes ago, mw711 said:

I noticed that since a young age I’ve said things like ‘numbers are not real’ or ‘that’s just made up’ or ‘we just imagine it all.’

Non-Material stuff like that. Of course most people disagree with me. 
 

My hold up is, I can think non-materially in many instances but I still accept the world as an integration between imagination and physicality. Like I know that how I imagine the physical world changes how interact with it, but is that all there is to it? Seems like I’m missing something. 
 

Is there no physical world at all? Is a an entanglement of imagination and actual physicality? Did i maybe break out of the paradigm when I was 11 and saying numbers aren’t real but didn’t know what the material paradigm was so now that I do I feel like I haven’t done it yet even though I did long ago?

 

The physical world, including you, are completely imaginary.   But what is imagining it? Well then you have the infinite regress problem.  But you can become conscious of Infinity.   This ultimately means that reality is one and limitless.  And since its One you are Infinity.  There is no ground to Infinity and thus none to reality.  Reality just is itself.  So Infinity is Nothing.  Ta Da!  

Your intuition at a young age, prior to any materialistic indoctrination, was correct.  Now you need to become directly conscious of it via an awakening or enlightenment.

[yetineti]

@Inliytened1 Thank you! I did have a few minor insights into nothingness. Nothing (lol) sustainable yet though. The most obvious one I had was on a mushroom trip and I was just laying in a hammock in the middle of the woods - I was feeling my whole body along with the universe seem to just evaporate into nothing. Sort of freaked me out but I ended up just trying to embrace it and let go.

[Leo Gura]

It's a dream.

[Moksha]

(This is my first post, so a general disclaimer for anything I write here or elsewhere. Everything I post is simply my current understanding. I claim no absolute truth beyond my personal experience.)

I recently read from the beginning of the Tao Te Ching (emphasis added):

“The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things. Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery.”

Ultimate reality cannot be named. It is "Darkness within darkness". It is a mystery that we can only begin to understand by abandoning our attachments to desire. The only thing we can know is the primal experience of connecting with that reality, and realizing that we are one with it. Everything else is speculation.

The world of form is an expression of Source, but it is not Source. In this world, matter and energy exist. In that sense, the world of form is "real". However, it is ephemeral; everything in this world eventually dissolves. Unlike ultimate reality, forms come and go. So the world of form is in another sense not real. It is one level of "Darkness".

Furthermore, we can only experience the world of form through the interpretation of our senses. What we see is not really there: It is an internal mental image of what is there. My "red" could be your "green". The thing that we perceive and name is not the thing itself. Our interpretation of the world of form is the second level of "Darkness".

Darkness within darkness.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Moksha said:

The world of form is an expression of Source, but it is not Source.

That's a duality.

Form is absolutely identical to Source.

[Moksha]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's a duality.

Form is absolutely identical to Source.

Nondualism is the belief that "the multiplicity of the universe is reducible to one essential reality." This is what I am suggesting. There is only one reality: Source. Form is an ephemeral expression of reality, but it is not reality.

Source is unitary, infinite, and uncaused. Form is diverse, ephemeral, and caused. They are not identical; the latter is a creative and illusory expression of the former.

 

[Osaid]

5 hours ago, mw711 said:

Is there no physical world at all? Is a an entanglement of imagination and actual physicality?

Is a dream physical? You can hold objects inside of it but does that count as physical? The boundary between physical and non-physical is just a superficial boundary you came up with inside your head. It's just a labelling game.

"This thing is "physical" because it has these qualities. This thing isn't "physical" because it has these qualities."  << see how boundaries are created here and then projected onto the universe? 

What if everything is your mind? And in your mind you have labelled certain qualities as "physical" and somehow thought of it to be separate from your mind? Exactly like a dream, where you think you are just one character but actually you are the entire thing.

 

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Nondualism is the belief that "the multiplicity of the universe is reducible to one essential reality." This is what I am suggesting. There is only one reality: Source. Form is an ephemeral expression of reality, but it is not reality.

You are not awake so you don't understand what you are talking about.

Nonduality is not a belief.

[AtheisticNonduality]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Nonduality is not a belief.

The Tao that is spoken is not the Tao.

[Moksha]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are not awake so you don't understand what you are talking about.

Nonduality is not a belief.

The Advaita Vedanta describes my experience:

"Advaita Vedānta literally, 'non-duality') is a school of Hindu philosophy, and is a classic system of spiritual realization in Indian tradition. The term Advaita refers to the idea that Brahman alone is ultimately real, the phenomenal transient world is an illusory appearance (Maya) of Brahman, and the true self, Atman, is not different from Brahman."

The Atman within each Being is one with Brahman. Everything else is an illusion.

Every word, label, and name is a belief, a construct, a fabrication in the world of form. "Nonduality" is only a pointer. Language is not the thing it tries to describe. Ultimate reality has no language; it simply is. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Moksha

[Moksha]

32 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

The Tao that is spoken is not the Tao.

^^^

[Inliytened1]

@Moksha Yes.  God is a shapeshifter.  Ultimately God has no form, but it takes any form.   To awaken is to become the formless.

[Moksha]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Moksha Yes.  God is a shapeshifter.  Ultimately God has no form, but it takes any form. 

Well said.

[Inliytened1]

11 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Well said.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Moksha]

19 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Welcome to the forum.

 

Thank you! Not the most auspicious start; I just joined and the forum owner has already accused me of lacking enlightenment 

Seriously though, I'm excited to be part of the community. It has been an individual journey for me to this point, and I feel ready to share with and learn from others on the path.

[Nahm]

7 hours ago, mw711 said:

I noticed that since a young age I’ve said things like ‘numbers are not real’ or ‘that’s just made up’ or ‘we just imagine it all.’

Non-Material stuff like that. Of course most people disagree with me. 
 

My hold up is, I can think non-materially in many instances but I still accept the world as an integration between imagination and physicality. Like I know that how I imagine the physical world changes how interact with it, but is that all there is to it? Seems like I’m missing something. 

That it is vibrational, as are we. Highly interactive situation all around. You might like Abraham Hicks. It’s quite dialed into the ‘between’ of that integration. Quantum Mechanics is also very informative and revealing, especially when interpreted in the way you seem to naturally. 

Quote

Is there no physical world at all? Is a an entanglement of imagination and actual physicality? Did i maybe break out of the paradigm when I was 11 and saying numbers aren’t real but didn’t know what the material paradigm was so now that I do I feel like I haven’t done it yet even though I did long ago?

There’s ice, but ice is water. Physicality is a self labelling vibrational appearance, as is the thought ‘physicality’. If taken as separate objects, entanglement baffles, and as infinite being it’s perfectly logical (as ice & as water).  ‘Breaking out of the paradigm’ is absolute, no remaining question, or even the slightest hint of dissatisfaction, self doubt, etc. You would know unequivocally. The actuality is not in this regard the thought, perception, or feelings about it.  You probably didn’t buy into the human paradigm much growing up, which communicatively could be said to be the level of thought or human creation. Relatively, another “level” is perception which could be said to be a paradigm which can also be ‘broken out of’, which is parallel and prior to human creation. 

@Moksha 

“The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things. Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery.”

So timeless & beautiful.  Welcome to the forum.  

[yetineti]

@Nahm This was exceptionally helpful and insightful, much thanks. You read my mind on a lot of stuff.....

And I will look into Abraham Hicks as I already have with Austin mechanics which are fascinating.

I’d say most helpful though - ‘There’s ice, but ice is water.’ 

Fuck that gave me chills. Maybe it was the metaphor or maybe it was the ice.

Thank you again.
 

[Moksha]

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

That it is vibrational, as are we. Highly interactive situation all around

Thank you for the welcome, Nahm. Can you expand on this? I've heard people apply the principle of vibrational frequency to matter, energy, and even emotion and spirit. Would love to hear more of your thoughts on this.

[Nahm]

@mw711 ??

@Moksha

You kind of summed it up there imo. ‘Gravity’, the ‘fields’, ‘particles’, ‘us’, etc, all vibrational. How else could something come from nothing, but for nothing to be something. The “whole universe”...a present ?.