Can mindfulness meditation be dangerous?

[Member]

What do you guys think?

[Fran11]

Sounds like he has only a conceptual and distorded understanding of "no mind", like many people do.

"No mind" is not literally never thinking. It's merging your mind in the present moment. That means that instead of thinking random crap all the time, the thoughts that you actually need according to the moment will come up, without the sense of a "thinker".

This doesn't mean that if you want to think about something that's not in your direct experience (like politics for example) you can't do it. You can, but it will feel more like a concious process instead of being unconciously pulled by random thoughts.

Thinking actually gets much more effective and refined as conciousness rises. Imagination also gets amazingly boosted.

I've been practicing mindfulness troughout the day as much as possible for years and found no downsides whatsover. Been able to study medicine career, reason properly, do artistic practices like painting and singing, etc. 

Don't worry about this.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Fran11

[Member]

@Fran11

This isn't what I've got from his clip. He just said that people value mindfulness meditation like it's the ultimate truth or reality. And that many of them have this idea that thoughts are bad and need to be annihilated. I can see why there's a problem with this view. Being present in the moment is ok but if you think that meditation alone will make you enlightened and you will know what reality is, that is just a limited view that won't get you anywhere. Just like a dog seeing everything for what is. No one says that the dog isn't more content and stress free but you have to ask yourself, is that a higher-consciousness perspective? What are you trying to achieve with this mindfulness meditation?

Edited September 23, 2020 by Member

[Fran11]

1 hour ago, Member said:

.Just like a dog seeing everything for what is. No one says that the dog isn't more content and stress free but you have to ask yourself, is that a higher-consciousness perspective? 

Comparing a dog's conciousness with a meditative human's conciousness is silly.

Even in enlightened people the "mind" still functions, they wouldn't even be able to speak if it wasn't so. 

But it isn't percieved as an individual mind anymore, it is one with the field of conciousness. That's what "no-mind" means.

Mindfulness or being present is not necesarily not thinking. I could be studying and at the same time be mindful of the thoughts appearing in awareness.

Stilling your mind in meditation is done in order to gain control over it. It doesn't mean you are going to permanently erradicate thought and become mentally impaired. That's a misconception.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Fran11

[Eph75]

Seems like a very litteral and one dimensional, somewhat simplistic conceptual interpretation of "mind full" vs "mindful" where a full mind is better and equal to the ability to conceptualize and that mindful mind is the equivalent to the meditative state of letting go of everything, having an empty mind or "no mind" without the capability to conceptualize at all. 

A full mind is useless if it is full of nonsense or not able to focus. A mindful mind holds an increasing ability to, as needed, conceptualize consciously in a focused and directed way such that is useful and serving the moment and adds understanding and clarity to the perception of what is. The moment is less clouded and we can be better observers of what is.

Implying that being mindful in each moment is equivalent to being in a mindless state seems to imply not having awakened into what I'd say is imperative to further progress, i.e. not being able to see and observe the going-ons of ones own mind and this on a permanent basis, i.e. still stuck in an autonomous reactive state of mind.

The dog analogy implies being prone to suggestion but it is rather the link between lack of awareness or inability to be mindful to what is that makes us vulnerable to suggestion, i.e. when driven by primitive autonomous impulses such as dogs are, or as slaves under ones social and cultural programming.

A choice to not interact or be attached / affected by what is can be percieved as not seeing, understanding, caring and be mispercieved as representing the mindless dog that has no sense to revolt against what is. 

Although states and stages should not be mixed and the cognitive abilities are more so related to the ability to hold ever increasingly complex thoughts and hence increases the availability to more complex concepts. Low along the cognitive developmental line(s) and high abilities in reaching such consciousness states, more or less temporary, probably is closer to "the dog" in terms disconnectedness paired with low ability to conceptualize. Judging based on that correlation makes for a simplistic analogy that is lacking in nuance. 

Oh the joy, wonderful distraction 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Eph75

[Brittany]

3 hours ago, Member said:

@Fran11

 And that many of them have this idea that thoughts are bad and need to be annihilated. I can see why there's a problem with this view. 

"Thoughts are bad" is not mindfulness.

"Thoughts are bad" is a moral judgement.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Brittany

[Member]

11 hours ago, Fran11 said:

Comparing a dog's conciousness with a meditative human's conciousness is silly.

People often choose this representation of what a mindful mind is. It's either a dog or a child. And there have been users on this forum saying that babies are enlightened which is silly. Being mindful is not some higher truth or perspective and does not equal to enlightenment.

11 hours ago, Fran11 said:

Even in enlightened people the "mind" still functions...

But it isn't percieved as an individual mind anymore, it is one with the field of conciousness.

I am sure that they still have their own biases and aren't really that detached after all. Also, associating 'enlightened' with 'person' aka individual mind, doesn't sound like no-mind to me.

11 hours ago, Fran11 said:

Mindfulness or being present is not necesarily not thinking. I could be studying and at the same time be mindful of the thoughts appearing in awareness.

My brain can be on autopilot and think automatically most of the time but this isn't a higher-consciousness state to experience.

This guy isn't saying that mindfulness meditation is bad just that people confuse it with some higher truth which is obviously a trap.

8 hours ago, Brittany said:

"Thoughts are bad" is not mindfulness.

"Thoughts are bad" is a moral judgement.

Agreed but saying that "the mind" or "self" is something that needs to be annihilated is also moral judgement when you equate it with the ego self, thing that most of the people on this forum do.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Member

[Leo Gura]

A fork can be dangerous in the hands of an imbecile.

The real question is, how dangerous is not-meditating?

 

[Dodo]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A fork can be dangerous in the hands of an imbecile.

The real question is, how dangerous is not-meditating?

 

well, its messy to eat without a fork  

[Fran11]

@Member

Do you have any experience with mediatation at all? Have you ever had any moments of high minfulness at all? 

It sounds like you only have a conceptual understanding, mostly based on taking literally a silly little drawing of a person and a dog, and really bought into this perspective without experimenting for yourself.

Take care and don't meditate then, nobody wants to downgrade to the level of a dog  Can't believe I'm even reading such a thing of this forum.

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Fran11

[Leo Gura]

Zen no-mind does NOT mean no thinking.

This is a common newbie misunderstanding.

[Fran11]

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Zen no-mind does NOT mean no thinking.

That's the point I'm trying to get across. People take no-mind literally.

Thinking actually becomes higher quality as the illusive "individual mind" melts in awareness. Although there are also moments of total silence.

I loved how in your last video about Ego-developement you talked about the connection with Universal Intelligence and the level of insight it produces, it would be great to have a whole episode about it.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Fran11

[Member]

@Fran11 I didn't say that meditation is bad, just that it doesn't equal to enlightenment and many confuse it with being some higher truth. If my/his observations bother you so much, then maybe it's your problem that you have this attachment to meditation. From my pov, clinging to a no-state and saying that's enlightenment, will not make you an enlightened Buddha, just an average Joe resting his mind after a stressful day lol.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Member

[Fran11]

1 hour ago, Member said:

@Fran11 I didn't say that meditation is bad, just that it doesn't equal to enlightenment and many confuse it with being some higher truth. If my/his observations bother you so much, then maybe it's your problem that you have this attachment to meditation. From my pov, clinging to a no-state and saying that's enlightenment, will not make you an enlightened Buddha, just an average Joe resting his mind after a stressful day lol.

Nobody said that meditation = enlightenment. Stop making strawmans.

Your perspective doesn't bother me, it just shows that you don't know what you are talking about, that's clear to anyone with at least a little bit of experience. Even Leo said it was a begginer's mistake.

My intention was helping you understand, not to defend meditation. But go on thinking you know better than everybody else. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Fran11

[Forestluv]

A paperclip can be extremely dangerous. Yet it can also be used to pick the lock that imprisons one’s self. 

[Member]

13 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Nobody said that meditation = enlightenment. Stop making strawmans.

Stop pretending that you know that nobody said that meditation = enlightenment. From the number of your posts and your most recent activity, I can clearly see that you have missed some content and have no idea where I'm pointing at. If you're fine with people claiming that babies are in a mindfulness state and are enlightened, then stay stupid and stop bothering others with your ignorance.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Member

[Fran11]

11 minutes ago, Member said:

Stop pretending that you know that nobody said that meditation = enlightenment. From the number of your posts and your most recent activity, I can clearly see that you have missed some content and have no idea where I'm pointing at. If you're fine with people claiming that babies are in a mindless state and are enlightened, then stay stupid and stop bothering others with your ignorance.

I was talking about this particular thread.

Bye, I don't care talking to agressive and close-minded people.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Fran11

[Member]

@Fran11 Lol, I don't care talking to clueless people either. And I was talking about a certain type of people that you seem to belong to, I never said that everyone thinks this way.

[Someone here]

Meditation is not adding something new to your current experience. It's not doing. You are meditating all the time. It's just shifting focus from identifying with thoughts to the pure awareness behind it. Which is already the case as the misidentification never really occurred. It's just recognizing what's already the case. 

[joeyi99]

@Leo Gura So letting thoughts pass without labelling them from "me"/ego??

On 9/24/2020 at 8:31 AM, Leo Gura said:

Zen no-mind does NOT mean no thinking.

This is a common newbie misunderstanding.