How would you explain oneness to a rationalist

[RichnNL]

Just as a fun thought experiment if a very scientific rational guy said believing everything is one is just like believing in flat earth there is no evidence, just your perspective etc. How would you explain something that is post rational and something that is beyond language to such as person?

[Thestarguitarist14]

That oneness is the truth of this universe.  That we are all connected.  That when you hate on someone, you really are only hating on that aspect that you see in yourself.

[Travelion]

You couldn't really convince him unless he experiences it through direct consciousness.

[oserra]

Quantum mechanics. When I meet those rational people I talk about quantum entanglement and electrons teleport... that's something that is mindblowing and that science has no answer to it. So, that's an evidence that Science does not have an answer for everything, and that something "magical" is happening behind scenes. And that magic is better explained if you really trust that we are all one, just as if we were a videogame running in a mega-computer... everything that happens in the video game is just one thing.

 

[nistake]

The hard problem of consciousness. Scientists still don't know where consciousness comes from and that says something.

Edited September 23, 2020 by nistake

[Travelion]

They just assume that consciousness emerges from the brain.

[Byun Sean]

You don't really. The materialist paradigm has got him by the balls and so for him thats the real metaphysics. Anything you say to him will be filtered inside his metaphysics and sense of reality.

 

Talking about a metaphysics that doesn't work with materialism won't compute for him since our metaphysics is deeply interwoven with our sense of self/ identity which he needs to survive at all costs.

Only way would be for him to work on himself a lot and then maybe get glimpses here and there through meditation and psychedelics if he was open minded enough. 

[Dodo]

2 hours ago, RichnNL said:

Just as a fun thought experiment if a very scientific rational guy said believing everything is one is just like believing in flat earth there is no evidence, just your perspective etc. How would you explain something that is post rational and something that is beyond language to such as person?

I would say - All perspectives appear to the same self.

 

I would tell them:

"Yes and No both appear to You. 

You can verify you are real, you cannot verify the perspective is real. "

Then the rationalist might say: " But there are some perspectives that can be proven - such as truths about the physical reality, matter etc"

Then I would respond " These things are proven, but only based on assumptions that were themselves not proven. So the foundation of those physical truths lies on shaky ground. If you use one illusory thing to prove that another illusory thing is real and true, you are making a fundamental mistake. You have to start from something that you know is true, and build on that foundation." 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Dodo

[Tim R]

1 hour ago, RichnNL said:

Just as a fun thought experiment if a very scientific rational guy said believing everything is one is just like believing in flat earth there is no evidence, just your perspective etc. How would you explain something that is post rational and something that is beyond language to such as person?

1. It's not a belief. This has to be absolutely clear. 

2. Show an ordinary object to the person, for example a spoon. Now explain, that you only call this thing a "spoon". Explain, that we only call this thing a "thing". Whatever we say about it, it is not what it is, because it is not a word. 

3. Ask the person to look at his arm/hand. Ask the person to determine where exactly your arm ends and the hand begins. Where is the boundary, exactly and precisely? There is not boundary - you can't see, hear, smell or touch any boundary, because there isn't one. And so, the person will have to notice, that the boundary between arm and hand is made up and totally artificial - it is not "out there" in the real world.

Ask the person to determine, where the boundary between outer space and the earth is, precisely? At what point, exactly does the atmosphere end and space begin? Down to an eighth of an inch, where is the boundary? It doesn't exist, does it? No, only as a concept, not in reality.

If the person thinks the big bang is real, great; explain, that at the beginning of the big bang, there was only one dense, hot object, which simply expanded ever since. It is still this one object - it simply isn't as dense as it was 13 billion years ago.

4. Explain that because all things aren't what you call them and because all boundaries are only concepts (even seemingly "clear" boundaries), every thing must be one.  

 

Don't expect the person to drop his ignorance. If he doesn't want to understand, he won't. 

[Leo Gura]

You do realize, right, that all numbers is completely relative? There is no difference between 1 and 2.

I dare you to find 1 or 2 in the objective world.

Anything you point to and call 1 will also be greater than one. Anything you point to and call greater than 1 will also be 1.

Because: one = many

But you weren't taught this lesson in math class.

[seeking_brilliance]

I think it's hilarious that we completely ignore the fact that we get our cells and atoms from Earth, so there's an instant connection there, and the earth got all its atoms and molecules from our sun and many more out there.  The information is there, it's just a matter of the mind being open or closed to what that means (yes all meaning is relative and imaginary, but so is separation) 

[Fran11]

4 hours ago, nistake said:

The hard problem of consciousness. Scientists still don't know where consciousness comes from and that says something.

This is it.

Just talk about conciousness and qualia and have fun watching them do mental gymnastics in order to reduce the color red to neurons/wave-lenghts/whatever. 

[Leo Gura]

@Fran11 Everyone knows consciousness isn't real

[Thewritersunion]

They will learn if they are nudged the right direction. 

[Someone here]

Tell him where exactly does you end and the world begins?

In other words .. What would be the breadth of any boundary between any two supposedly distinct objects in the world? 

Infinite. So entire existence is one thing. Duality or two-ness is imposed by the mind.  

And ofcourse since every two is one.. And every one is two.. There is no difference between oneness and twoness.   That is absolute oneness 

[Nahm]

9 hours ago, RichnNL said:

Just as a fun thought experiment if a very scientific rational guy said believing everything is one is just like believing in flat earth there is no evidence, just your perspective etc. How would you explain something that is post rational and something that is beyond language to such as person?

What’s aware of beliefs, evidence, perspectives, etc?

[Inliytened1]

9 hours ago, oserra said:

Quantum mechanics. When I meet those rational people I talk about quantum entanglement and electrons teleport... that's something that is mindblowing and that science has no answer to it. So, that's an evidence that Science does not have an answer for everything, and that something "magical" is happening behind scenes. And that magic is better explained if you really trust that we are all one, just as if we were a videogame running in a mega-computer... everything that happens in the video game is just one thing.

 

Yup - and Quantum tunneling as well - most notably with photons from the sun.

[yetineti]

@RichnNL

All of these other answers seem true but like too much to me lol. I see it as much more straight forward.

Tell rationalist simply: There can only be one EVERYTHING. If you say there’s two you were not including it all.

Edited September 23, 2020 by mw711

[LarryW]

11 hours ago, RichnNL said:

 

Materialism is a metaphysical theory of oneness too, my suggestion would be to fully embrace their materialism and become a purely physical being. Maybe they can experience no-mind? They don't really believe in the existence of mind anyway. I don't see why materialism can't be a route into mysticism, just like the idealism that's popular here.  

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, LarryW said:

Materialism is a metaphysical theory of oneness too, my suggestion would be to fully embrace their materialism and become a purely physical being. Maybe they can experience no-mind? They don't really believe in the existence of mind anyway. I don't see why materialism can't be a route into mysticism, just like the idealism that's popular here.  

 Materialism grounds itself in a physical objective reality separate from you.   But when pressed a materialist cannot answer the question of where did physical reality come from.  They will say the big bang, maybe.  But cannot answer where the big bang came from.  Their answer would be something like - "we will figure it out eventually".  But they  will just be pushing the question back a notch.   Science (science as we know it today) will always have the infinite regress problem to deal with.    Truth is prior to it.  

It doesn't mean someone who is conscious of Truth is special in any way - they are simply conscious of Absolute Truth.

Anyone who has an open mind and not paradigm locked can discover Truth for themselves.