Police brutality or S. Green bias?

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, Forestluv said:

You weren’t clear enough. I’m not asking if the protests were peaceful. I’m asking why were they protesting? What was the underlying value of the protests? If they were protesting an abortion clinic, it’s Blue - not Green. And what building was it? 

The protests itself was about asking for better conditions for nurses. We're im COVID19 peak in here. Totally justifyed of course.

This was a little group trying to break in into a public building nearby. Which like I said it's not uncommon here. I don't know which exactly, many look similar.

Should this be allowed?

 

 

[Fran11]

11 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

Your particular example and the way you set the debate afterwards is totally one-directional. You didn't say anything about excessive use of force, but you described greens very negatively instead and not only on the example.

Come on, this is not to speak about a particular case.

The use of force can be excessive. This is why I say I'm talking about this particular case and not saying it never happens.

But to Green it always is. So in that sense yes, I was making a general point about this Green excesses.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fran11

[Preety_India]

How can you say this is wrong? 

Nurses are at the highest risk of getting Covid-19. 

So nurses protesting to have better and safer conditions is wrong? 

I'm baffled. 

 

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Fran11 said:

The protests itself was about asking for better conditions for nurses. We're im COVID19 peak in here. Totally justifyed of course.

This was a little group trying to break in into a public building nearby. Which like I said it's not uncommon here. I don't know which exactly, many look similar.

Should this be allowed?

Protesting for better work conditions for nurses would be considered Green. What was the building the little group was trying to break into? 

I don’t consider a random group of people trying to break into a random building to be green. And were they trying to break into the building to get something? Or were they trying to destroy the building? You give different descriptions. . . The underlying motivation and value is important for determine SD stage. 

[Fran11]

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

How can you say this is wrong? 

Nurses are at the highest risk of getting Covid-19. 

So nurses protesting to have better and safer conditions is wrong? 

I'm baffled. 

 

Okay you just wanna attack me, I clearly said the protest was justyfied.

The breaking in into public buildings is not.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fran11

[Fran11]

7 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I don’t consider a random group of people trying to break into a random building to be green. 

I'm not saying that group is Green, like I said above its probably Red.

But Green is always against the use of force used in order to avoid unnecesary destruction. 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fran11

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

But Green is always against the use of force used in order to avoid unnecesary destruction. 

This isn’t true. Green would support the use of force to protect the Amazon rainforest from being destructed. 

Green is the most peaceful stage in Tier1, yet they will use selective force to some degree to protect their values. And Green would sympathize with the use of force for a justified cause. If force was used to rescue immigrants being tortured, Green would sympathize with the use of that force since it is trying to stop human rights violations. 

[Fran11]

7 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

This isn’t true. Green would support the use of force to protect the Amazon rainforest from being destructed. 

Green is the most peaceful stage in Tier1, yet they will use selective force to some degree to protect their values. And Green would sympathize with the use of force for a justified cause. If force was used to rescue immigrants being tortured, Green would sympathize with the use of that force since it is trying to stop human rights violations. 

Great points! Yes, I exaggerated a little.

What they are almost always against is the use of force in order to avoid Red excesses.

I'm not saying Red sholud be always repressed, but it's a balance and at least in my country they take it overboard and rather allow unnecesary destruction.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fran11

[Preety_India]

12 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

I'm not saying that group is Green, like I said above its probably Red.

But Green is always against the use of force used in order to avoid unnecesary destruction. 

 

You're very misconstrued about Green. You are trying to make them look like violent thugs trying to get what they want. 

Green will justify force when things are out of control and rights are being violated 

The need for justice is extremely strong in Green. 

But understand this civil rights movements were never really peaceful. You think that by simply standing peacefully, people in authority would care to listen? Green needs to challenge Blue and Red Authority which cannot be done without the use of some force or disruption! This is perfectly valid if the goal is to stop oppression or social evils. 

Today because of Green movements like Feminism, I'm able to speak to you. Or else under a Red system I would have gotten married at 9 years old to an older man, doing dishes and getting beaten up by him,the way it happened to my grandmother.. 

So be grateful to Green, because of Stage Green activists, the world is less oppressive to the vulnerable groups in society. 

 

 

No I'm not attacking you, just trying to correct you. 

[Fran11]

11 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 So be grateful to Green, because of Stage Green activists, the world is less oppressive to the vulnerable groups in society. 

Thats like saying:  "Be thankful for Blue, because if it wasn't for Blue, Red would rape and kill you."

Does this mean that Blue doesnt have unhealthy asspects? 

Extrapolate to Green and realise it's not pure good and love. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fran11

[Fran11]

21 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

No I'm not attacking you, just trying to correct you. 

You wanted to make it seem like I was against a fair protest when I had clarified it in bold that I was not.

That seems like intentional misinterpretation and making a straw-man.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fran11

[Fran11]

@Forestluv I found out the building in question is the legislative building.

Kinda irrelevant because trying to break in and destroy any public building generally seems like Red barbarism to me. But you had asked so I reply. 

About their motivations, maybe they werent going to destroy it... maybe they just wanted to clean it, or to take pictures... but it doesn't seem so 

Would not taking the chance be right wing repression? 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fran11

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Fran11 said:

I was talking specifically about goverment force, not riots.

Green is generally ok with criminals being punished in one way or another. That is one form of government force.

[Fran11]

16 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Green is generally ok with criminals being punished in one way or another. That is one form of government force.

Not so in my country at least.

Green excesses are more noticeable and problematic in underdeveloped contries, where there's more Red.

A good example is public over-expenditure. In a first world country maybe its not that a big problem and only conservatives complain because of dogma. But here is very damaging for the economy, they don't undersatand that a poor country cant sustain a state thats as big as in developed regions. We are always taking debt or printing money, which worsens poverty in the long run.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Fran11 said:

@Forestluv I found out the building in question is the legislative building.

Kinda irrelevant because trying to break in and destroy any public building generally seems like Red barbarism to me. But you had asked so I reply. 

I'd consider it relevant. We are not talking about random people wanting to destroy a building for fun. It seems like we are talking about people protesting what they see as maltreatment and government corruption. They want nurses in their community to have proper equipment, better working conditions and health care system. I did a quick online search and it looks like there have been many similar protests. If the government doesn't respond to the community they serve, people will get upset. It's not like this group went to a random building like a video game store. They went to a government legislative building. What better place to put pressure on the government to act differently than the place those decisions are made? This is putting pressure on legislature. They are saying, "you better make some changes soon or else!!". We could discuss whether this is the best strategy toward reforming the health care system. There is debate whether these types of protests help induce change. During the suffrage movement, peaceful protests were insufficient to induce reforms and violence emerged. Some historians say that the violence accelerated suffrage for women. 

I would place this at being motivated by green values for social welfare, mixed with some red level impulsiveness and aggression. People are a mix of stages, and each stage has value. And I can see how green level observers would have sympathy for the angry protesters. If I was in their situation, I would likely be angry as well. Stage blue would consider the protesters red-level law breakers, stage orange would analyze the protesters from above and see them as red, stage green would empathize with the protesters and sympathize with them. Stage yellow would have a meta view and integrate various factors. 

[Fran11]

22 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

And I can see how green level observers would have sympathy for the angry protesters. If I was in their situation, I would likely be angry as well. Stage blue would consider the protesters red-level law breakers, stage orange would analyze the protesters from above and see them as red, stage green would empathize with the protesters and sympathize with them. Stage yellow would have a meta view and integrate various factors. 

Strongly agree.

It's easy to see Green as rainbows and butterflyes from a 1st world country perspective.

But when a 30% of population is Red, Green dogma (demonization of Blue and Organe and denial of their healthy asspects) can't deal with social problems and becomes counterproducent.

Yellow in such a situation would highlight the healthy asspects of lower stages and be considered as a conservative.

I am very pro Green values, in my post about gender deconstruction they took me as a crazy progressive liberal. Now it seems I'm coming out as a conservative.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fran11

[Fran11]

26 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

We could discuss whether this is the best strategy toward reforming the health care system. There is debate whether these types of protests help induce change. During the suffrage movement, peaceful protests were insufficient to induce reforms and violence emerged. Some historians say that the violence accelerated suffrage for women. 

Yes. My claim is that in this case violence is useless. Because its not just about goverment's denial of social problems, there's just no money to please everyone, no matter how many buildings they break.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fran11

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Strongly agree.

It's easy to see Green as rainbows and butterflyes from a 1st world country perspective.

But when a 30% of population is Red, Green dogma (demonization of Blue and Organe and denial of their healthy asspects) can't deal with social problems and becomes counterproducent.

In terms of SD theory, Green doesn't work so well in a society centered at red or blue. For example, Green wouldn't be very effective in Syria at this time.

5 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Yellow in such a situation would highlight the healthy asspects of lower stages and be considered as a conservative.

I'd say it's relative. In SD theory, Yellow wants to pull the average consciousness up the spiral - that is progressive. Conservatives want to halt consciousness progress or regress down the spiral. Yet what is progressive is relative to the time era and the country. What is progressive in the Netherlands is very different than what is progressive in Saudi Arabia. As well, what is progressive in America in 2020 is different than what was progressive in America in 1920.

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, Forestluv said:

I'd say it's relative. In SD theory, Yellow wants to pull the average consciousness up the spiral - that is progressive. Conservatives want to halt consciousness progress or regress down the spiral. Yet what is progressive is relative to the time era and the country. What is progressive in the Netherlands is very different than what is progressive in Saudi Arabia. As well, what is progressive in America in 2020 is different than what was progressive in America in 1920.

Thats right, that's why in a highly Red society, Yellow would not only promote Green and Yellow values, but also healthy Blue and Orange, as they are still an elevation from Red.

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Yes. My claim is that in this case violence is useless. Its not about goverment denial, there's just no money to please everyone, no matter how many buildings they break.

Are you saying there is no monetary corruption in Argentinian politics?  Perhaps some of this 1.2 billion could have gone to nursing ppe. Money is about priorities. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/argentina-s-new-leadership-carries-old-baggage-corruption-conspiracy-allegations-ncna1103556

That's the type of toxic capitalism and corruption that pisses of Green.