Omfg it's Love

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, Fran11 said:

How can something that is beyond time change?

How can the absolute exclude change? Where does change come from?

Quote

Change always implies time.

No. We use change to measure time, but time is a concept that is superimposed over change. Change can happen without time.

A tree changes but it has no notion of time.

If you stop imagining time, it will stop existing. But change will still happen. The change will happen within eternity.

Change and eternity are one.

[Dodo]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How can the absolute exclude change? Where does change come from?

No. We use change to measure time, but time is a concept that is superimposed over change. Change can happen without time.

A tree changes but it has no notion of time.

If you stop imagining time, it will stop existing. But change will still happen. The change will happen within eternity.

Change and eternity are one.

The very question "Where does change come from?" is implying that you are asking in the realm of time. In the realm where things have a beginning and an end. But this is just imagination. There is not really change in reality. There is only nothing. All change is just an appearance of change, it borrows reality from the changeless eternal subject. 

But there is also benefit here for the changeless eternal subject, because it enjoys those illusions of change. That's probably why it merges its reality with all objects within itself.

There is only ever nothingness, all appearances, no matter how real they look, are just skillful illusions. And I cannot say from direct experience where those skillful illusions come from and who/what is generating them and why. It's a movie and I appear to be the character. And you appear to be another character... But if we watch direct experience now, as you have taught me to do, I exist AS the ultimate reality - I have never changed EVER, only appearances in me change. I cannot tell how they change or why. My best guess would be that it's my imagination. 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Dodo

[Seb G]

Change is reality, time is a measurement and therefore conceptual and literally not real.

Beginning and end are concepts too.

Time implies change, I believe is closer to the truth, but never the other way.

[Member]

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

There is only ever nothingness, all appearances, no matter how real they look, are just skillful illusions. And I cannot say from direct experience where those skillful illusions come from and who/what is generating them and why. It's a movie and I appear to be the character. And you appear to be another character... But if we watch direct experience now, as you have taught me to do, I exist AS the ultimate reality - I have never changed EVER, only appearances in me change. I cannot tell how they change or why. My best guess would be that it's my imagination. 

You're contradicting yourself. You either exist as the ultimate reality, or you're seeing all these skillful illusions coming from an unknown source. If you don't know who's generating them and why, then you're not aware that you are reality.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

The very question "Where does change come from?" is implying that you are asking in the realm of time. In the realm where things have a beginning and an end. But this is just imagination. There is not really change in reality. There is only nothing. All change is just an appearance of change, it borrows reality from the changeless eternal subject. 

But there is also benefit here for the changeless eternal subject, because it enjoys those illusions of change. That's probably why it merges its reality with all objects within itself.

There is only ever nothingness, all appearances, no matter how real they look, are just skillful illusions. And I cannot say from direct experience where those skillful illusions come from and who/what is generating them and why. It's a movie and I appear to be the character. And you appear to be another character... But if we watch direct experience now, as you have taught me to do, I exist AS the ultimate reality - I have never changed EVER, only appearances in me change. I cannot tell how they change or why. My best guess would be that it's my imagination. 

No

You are lost in duality.

[Fran11]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Change can happen without time.

Multiple possibilities can coexist without time.

But how can change not imply time?

State A and state B either have to exist superimposed (beyond time) or they have to be separeted by something (time or whatever concept we use to describe this).

If time is an ilusion, so is change.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Fran11

[Leo Gura]

@Fran11 Time is just something you're imagining.

If no human ever told you about time, you could live your whole life not knowing it exists.

An ant knows nothing about time. Yet it lives just fine.

Babies live just fine without time. You even live without time most of the time

Time is a human invention. But change is more fundamental.

[Fran11]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If no human ever told you about time, you could live your whole life not knowing it exists.

There would still be an experiential separation beetween different states of conciousness, in our experience each moment is different. 

Is this separation real?

If it is, "time" or whatever we call it, has to be an intrinsec aspect of the absolute, so that these states can be separated. I guess this is what you are calling "change". This would imply that there's a "past" (changes that have happened) and a "future" (changes that are yet to happen) from the absolute perspective.

If the separation is not real, everything exists superimposed and there's no change/time. 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Fran11

[Someone here]

14 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

in our experience each moment is different. 

If you pay attention there are no moments.  It's always ever the same present moment.   Only the content of it changes.  But NOW is always NOW. And that's the only time there is.  The time is always NOW.   

[Member]

1 hour ago, Fran11 said:

There would still be an experiential separation beetween different states of conciousness, in our experience each moment is different. 

Is this separation real?

If the separation is not real, everything exists superimposed and there's no change/time. 

Different does not mean that it's either separated or superimposed. Each moment/event that is happening over time is unique and only appears to be different in relation to other events which are all interconnected. Separation implies that there's a disconnection between events, so it's not real because existence always implies a continuation of some sort.

[Fran11]

10 minutes ago, Member said:

Different does not mean that it's either separated or superimposed. Each moment/event that is happening over time is unique and only appears to be different in relation to other events 

You yourself are saying they are separeted by time.

I never ment "disconection" by saying "separatedness". Just that which you also recognize.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Fran11

[kai0]

Yo time and change are like the easiest thing to understand its very simple , there is one ever-present thing that is absolute time , and there is mini or relative time which is fragments of absolute time or the human concept we know . And as for change there is one infinite God that is changing forms and interacting with it self all the time 

You cant pinpoint God to the present moment because the present moment is not a single second . It is God and absolute time 

[kai0]

What is hard is free will and love and goodness I just cant wrap my head around it

[Tim R]

1 hour ago, Mikael89 said:

Without time everything would freeze. You would stop breathing, your heart would stop beating, neurons would stop firing, you or anything else wouldn't be able to move, thought wouldn't be possible, you would be dead, earth would stop spinning, air molecules and everything would stand still.

Without time, everything would go on just the same.

Time has the same relationship to process/happening as length has to space. Stop confusing time with change.

What lasts? Nothing.  (really think long and hard about this one...)

[Member]

We don't live in space, although it appears we do. We are spacetime, reality, the Universe or God... whatever you wanna call it.

[Someone here]

41 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

We live in spacetime.

Space and time are different sides of the same coin.

Without time nothing could happen and there wouldn't be a universe.

 

Time.. Space and change are being imagined by the ultimate. Just like a  dream. Only the ultimate is real. 

You gotta think the appearance of time and space is nested inside other grounds endlessly. So ultimately there ain't no time.. Or space.. Or change.. Or Universe. 

[Chris365]

@Tim R Can you expand a bit on this? Do you define 'unconditional acceptance' as love, and that's how you recognize it? Thanks.

 

On 9/18/2020 at 8:30 AM, Tim R said:

When I say "reality accepts itself" I don't mean this in the ordinary sense.. (You know, when we say " I am Joe Shmoe and according to my beliefs, desires and needs I either accept or reject the current circumstances"). 

When I say "reality accepts itself", I mean that in a non-dual way - in other words, there is no possibility for reality not to accept itself.

Don't think that reality has any choice to accept or reject itself. There is only acceptance, no matter what.

Whatever is, is, and there is no way that something is not. Therefore there is no ways reality couldn't accept itself, because everything is.

 

 

[Tim R]

35 minutes ago, Chris365 said:

@Tim R Can you expand a bit on this? Do you define 'unconditional acceptance' as love, and that's how you recognize it? Thanks.

Yes, basically. Love is unconditional, it embraces everything, nothing is left behind, nothing rejected. 

That is also the case for existence, you see? Everything that is, is (obviously). And so everything that is, could not not be, because it already is!!  

Whatever is, isn't accepted by existence, existence itself literally is acceptance. It can't be anything else. How could it? 

 

Existence can't be anything but unconditional acceptance of that which is - it's Love. 

Hope this helps... if not, well, you won't grasp it with your mind anyway so don't be disappointed

Edited October 1, 2020 by Tim R

[Chris365]

15 hours ago, Tim R said:

Yes, basically. Love is unconditional, it embraces everything, nothing is left behind, nothing rejected. 

That is also the case for existence, you see? Everything that is, is (obviously). And so everything that is, could not not be, because it already is!!  

Whatever is, isn't accepted by existence, existence itself literally is acceptance. It can't be anything else. How could it? 

 

Existence can't be anything but unconditional acceptance of that which is - it's Love. 

Hope this helps... if not, well, you won't grasp it with your mind anyway so don't be disappointed

It does help, and hope it'll stop the seeking energies for 'Love'. I guess my separate self was looking for something else, not unconditional acceptance 

I 'knew' this Love we're speaking of is not the egoic, romantic, conditional, human feeling of love... still, the seeker expected something 'more' than this ^. Something it might define as 'stronger', because to it, it feels like something more 'real', when identified with the limited self, when compared to the wishy-washy 'unconditional' <insert _love_ synonym here>.

Of course, that's seeker's role, to create concepts about what it seeks, so it never finds them 

 

[Tim R]

@Mikael89 Doesn't delusion imply that you're not aware of being deluded?