Getting around the concept of suffering

[Just Do Nothing]

OK so I've been introspecting for a good 3-4 years now and I've diminished my ego a lot and have even experienced ego death for small periods of time (mostly using psychedelics). 

It is my understanding that all is interconnected and one and that god (aka the source, the system, dao, whatever) constructed the universe and reality for something to do and that life is gods way of becoming conscious of itself. I am grateful for god and I love life and reality until I think of the concept of suffering or experience intense suffering myself. 

Suffering is so bad and horrible things happen to people. I mean imagine being locked in a dark dirty torture chamber for your whole lifetime and scheduled to daily 8-12 hours of torture which consists of having all your bones broken, body sliced up, being raped, made dehydrated, fed nothing but when fed it's dead insects, having poop put in your mouth before your mouth getting sewn up and other inhumane things such as that for a lifetime. It wouldn't be nice (that's an understatement) and I would not be grateful for god then, in fact, I would hate god. I'm not so afraid of death but enduring suffering such as that that I have just mentioned I honestly would not be able to handle or even something not as extreme as that such as being prisoner for the rest of my life.

Why has god made a reality with the potential for such suffering if it is ultimately god that will experience it when it happens. 

I find the phenomena of suffering unenlightening. Without suffering I would have complete ecstasy and appreciation for god, the universe and reality but instead I am aware of suffering and well... why would god do such a thing? 

 

The concept of suffering makes me ask questions such as;

Is god one whole that divided itself consisting of two half one being love and the other suffering? A game with itself? Two opposing forces that balance out over infinity?

I get kinda like life in the balance and maybe that there wouldn't be true happiness without the grounding of suffering. No lotus without mud blah blah. 

 

But why has god made suffering the much more intense force to experience, I wouldn't want to pay the price of the chance of intense eternal suffering for some standard emotional fluctuating lifetimes. I wouldn't want to experience being put in a torture cell and be subject of horrific brutal torture for eighty years in one lifetime for 10 billion lifetimes of happiness. 

Anyone can help me? 

 

 

[Tim R]

37 minutes ago, Just Do Nothing said:

Is god one whole that divided itself consisting of two half one being love and the other suffering? A game with itself? Two opposing forces that balance out over infinity?

In reality, there are no two thing opposed to each other. Where does one thing start and the other thing end? These limits are not real. Equally, the boundaries between pleasure and suffering don't exist. The division between pleasure and suffering is arbitrary. 

40 minutes ago, Just Do Nothing said:

Suffering is so bad

Only because you say so.

40 minutes ago, Just Do Nothing said:

Why has god made a reality with the potential for such suffering if it is ultimately god that will experience it when it happens. 

Why not? 

 

You ask: why is there suffering, why does suffering have the right to exist? 

Suffering doesn't need any right to exist, just like anything else.

Existence is prior to reasons. 

 

[Just Do Nothing]

12 minutes ago, Tim R said:

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In reality, there are no two thing opposed to each other.

I'm pretty sure there are. For example, protons and electrons in the equilibrium of an atom.

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Where does one thing start and the other thing end?

A piece of string can be measured and that can be found out.

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These limits are not real. Equally, the boundaries between pleasure and suffering don't exist. The division between pleasure and suffering is arbitrary. 

I'm sure neuroscience can shed some light on what goes on in the brain during moments of pleasure opposed to moments of suffering. But I agree the the division between pleasure and suffering is arbitrary but only to a certain extent.

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Only because you say so.

I don't know about that. Find me someone who doesn't think sewn up mouth with poop in, rape, torture, etc etc for lifetime in confinement isn't suffering. Also we are biologically created by mother nature to avoid pain and suffering (not so much mentally due to addiction flaws etc) so mother nature must know it is bad as we are evolved to avoid it. 

 

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Why not? 

Because I am and many others are a part of it and I don't want it when it's just too bad. 

 

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You ask: why is there suffering, why does suffering have the right to exist? 

Suffering doesn't need any right to exist, just like anything else.

Existence is prior to reasons. 

 

Well that's a pretty fantastic response, I can't argue with that one at least. 

 

[Just Do Nothing]

22 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

Yeah..

I also think a lot about that stuff, because my living undeniable reality is nothing but constant suffering with no Love at all. I know that everyone in this forum are saying that everything is Love. But if someone would say that everything is Hell, then I would believe him/her much more.

I can emphasise with that I've been in some dark place where I thought life was just absolute hell and that's where I am reflecting back to and contemplating whilst I'm actually in a good place mentally right now. It's those memories and the thought of how it could of been so much worse and has been a thousand fold for others in life that make me think how can life be all about love. 

22 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

I think reality should have a emergency escape/fail-safe feature (other than suicide) when suffering gets too bad. I spend a lot of time on searching for such a emergency escape/fail-safe. But there doesn't seem to be one. But maybe it's suicide after all, I really don't know. (Although not even that would be possible for the one who is getting tortured.)

I think the mind can disassociate through trauma which may be a good touch from god and could be seen as an emergency escape.

22 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

All such explanations are deeply unsatisfactory and seems to me like just mental masturbation. But maybe you are right, I don't know.

Do you think that stuff helps the one who is getting tortured or me?

But maybe it's true, I don't know. It still sucks though.

 

Yeah my thought's exactly though I like the one about existence before reason. 

22 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

This comes to my mind: 

"A hundred scriptures may declare that fire is cold or that it is dark; still they possess no authority in the matter."
- Adi Shankara

That's pretty good!

[Just Do Nothing]

 

I am disappointed in the lack of interest in this thread. I've been thinking about this still and can recall how the Dalai Lama speaks of how we should have acceptance of suffering and I think I'd take his word over it more than one who says something along the lines of suffering only exists because I say so. 

I'm starting to wonder whether insights such as god is love is really the truth, I feel it from time to time, I could be much more comfortable with reality if I just thought that ignorance was bliss but suffering does exist and horrible things happen to people and I feel it is important and more enlightening to be aware of suffering. How can god be love when things like I mentioned in the original post can happen and things like the holocaust have happened. 

People say that they make contact or become god via the use of psychedelics, what about when they have a bad trip? Is that not god too. 

I feel as pretty much everyone who is interested in deeper insight and enlightenment is ignorant of the dark side of reality, all this talk of god being love and such may be true but what if god is evil too? 

I've just remembered a quote from a book I read and googled it to find it and it is very relative (fantastic book by the way);

“So, monotheism explains order, but is mystified by evil. Dualism explains evil, but is puzzled by order. There is one logical way of solving the riddle: to argue that there is a single omnipotent God who created the entire universe – and He’s evil. But nobody in history has had the stomach for such a belief.”
― Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind

I'm not expecting answers but just some ideas at least!

 

Sorry but I felt the need to bump this thread as I need ideas. I've read guidelines and have noted that I am allowed to do so along it is not excessive. Please let me know how many times I can before it becomes excessive. 

[Chris365]

Physical pain only becomes psychological suffering when the ego constructs a story around it. And you know the ego is just a bunch of thoughts, right? What you truly are, is Consciousness. There will be suffering for as long as you (mis-)identify with the ego/body.

So going from "your own" suffering, you construct a story about the most horrible 'suffering' imaginable... guess who constructs this story? Your ego.

Rather than trying to understand this whole thing from the perspective of the ego (as you can see, it doesn't work, ego will create the suffering, then it will create the story around how this 'self'-created suffering is 'bad', and then it will create stories about 'all the suffering in the world', and how that's bad... stories upon stories upon self-referencing stories...

... it would be more productive looking for ways of realizing the truth...

That is, that ego is an illusion. Once you see that, all suffering dissipates as if it never existed.

[Just Do Nothing]

1 hour ago, Chris365 said:

Physical pain only becomes psychological suffering when the ego constructs a story around it. And you know the ego is just a bunch of thoughts, right? What you truly are, is Consciousness.

Yes I can completely understand and agree with that, ego can make psychological suffering from the result of physical pain but physical pain or inhumane treatment is still suffering with or without ego, it exists physically and we will be aware of it, conscious of it with or without ego. When you experience suffering signals travel through your central nervous system to your brain and you will be conscious of the signals with or without ego. Ego is a product of our brains after all. What we truly are is, consciousness, yes, but my consciousness is aware of the fact that it coincides with a brain that can produce ego and feels pain and other horrible sensations. God made my brain, god is my brain. God feels what my brain feels. 

1 hour ago, Chris365 said:

There will be suffering for as long as you (mis-)identify with the ego/body.

Covered the ego part already. I am sceptical about how people can not identify with the body and whether that is even possible without drugs or trauma related disassociation. Either way, you still have a body but you are just not conscious of it at the time and the body still suffers. 

 

1 hour ago, Chris365 said:

Rather than trying to understand this whole thing from the perspective of the ego (as you can see, it doesn't work, ego will create the suffering, then it will create the story around how this 'self'-created suffering is 'bad', and then it will create stories about 'all the suffering in the world', and how that's bad... stories upon stories upon self-referencing stories...

... it would be more productive looking for ways of realizing the truth...

That is, that ego is an illusion. Once you see that, all suffering dissipates as if it never existed.

Again I've covered what I think about the correlation between ego and suffering and how ego is a byproduct of the brain where the brain still receives the signals in response to suffering so the suffering still happens whether ego is present or not. 

Suffering is bad. All the suffering in the world is true and has happened. I bet if you experienced some of the most traumatic things that happened in reality you would cry and all this talk would dissipate and the 'the truth' would be absolute fucking torment and hell. I know that's how I would feel. 

If the Buddha or the most enlightened man or one with no ego was locked up for a life sentence in a shit hole, scheduled to burning of the body for prolonged periods of time, poop put in their mouth and sewn up, impaled, flayed, raped, played overly loud music and more excruciating things for endless hours on a daily basis. I really think they would fucking suffer. 

I personally think that a lot of people with common interests in this field are deluded by thinking that they can get rid of suffering by reaching some state of consciousness. I think it's a comfort thing. Life can be really fucking horrible. I really hope I never experience anything close to the worst. I truly believe that physiological suffering can be reduced in life via the kind of development we do here and that mental responses to physical pain can make it also psychological and that spiritual development could help minimise it for sure but yeah... the reality that we live in, that god made, that we are has the potential to be a fucking nightmare beyond comprehension so why did god do it? 

Why? 

 

[Chris365]

With no ego identification, suffering will not happen (by definition). The body will feel the pain of torture, the body will cry, it will react... 

For an enlightened being, the suffering won't be there though.

You're skeptical about people not identifying with a body? alright then... I guess you don't see enlightenment as a valid thing then?

1 hour ago, Just Do Nothing said:

Suffering is bad. All the suffering in the world is true and has happened. I bet if you experienced some of the most traumatic things that happened in reality you would cry and all this talk would dissipate and the 'the truth' would be absolute fucking torment and hell.

I would cry, yes, and all/most bodies would cry

 

1 hour ago, Just Do Nothing said:

I know that's how I would feel. 

The "I" here is the ego, and yes, "you" would suffer

1 hour ago, Just Do Nothing said:

I really think they would fucking suffer. 

No, they would feel the physical pain, but realizing their (and your ) true nature, suffering is not present, since what you really are cannot be harmed, it's eternal, pure awareness.

1 hour ago, Just Do Nothing said:

so why did god do it? 

God is not creating suffering (btw, apparently you're God, so...) , you / ego are creating it. 

Take me and you for example, 2 unenlightened (I assume) ego/body-minds. Looking at the description of shitty situations some people may go through you posted,  you create/imagine the suffering that would entail, I don't. So suffering is not this real entity that 'God created'. It's all you.

How to stay asleep, No.11, get mad at God 

 

[seeking_brilliance]

Honestly some of the worst suffering is human interaction. ? Sorry bad day at work ?

[RedLine]

Because without suffering God couldn't see himself. Without suffering there is Nothing. Something = Suffering. In the moment that Something arise from Nothing, that thing arise as suffer=desire=survivence=attachment.

[Just Do Nothing]

2 hours ago, Chris365 said:

With no ego identification, suffering will not happen (by definition). The body will feel the pain of torture, the body will cry, it will react... 

For an enlightened being, the suffering won't be there though.

You're skeptical about people not identifying with a body? alright then... I guess you don't see enlightenment as a valid thing then?

No, you're probably right. I don't see enlightenment as a valid thing. Ego death, yes, certainly to some extent though I believe we need an ego in life as it serves great purpose for ensuring we live a life we desire. And also to make sure we survive. By the way do you not think enlightenment is a pretty egoistic thing itself? Who wants to reach enlightenment? The ego.

Sure we can dig deeper within our conscious minds and enlightenment guides and gurus are a good way to do so but enlightenment is never attained. Enlightenments happen along the way, yeah sure. 

 

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The "I" here is the ego, and yes, "you" would suffer

Look, I have my own body, mother nature made it and is conscious through it. Mother nature likes to be able to separate and identify itself from other bodies. I can say things such as "I" because it is convenient. Just like mother nature made us have a part of the brain responsible for EGO. So what if it's my ego saying "I". It's convenient and makes sense doesn't it.

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No, they would feel the physical pain, but realizing their (and your ) true nature, suffering is not present, since what you really are cannot be harmed, it's eternal, pure awareness.

I don't get the need for "(and your ) part. It's not like I'm claiming to be enlightened. In fact quite the opposite. I'm saying I'm a regular guy and I wouldn't be able to handle some of the horrors that happen in life. You're the one who is saying one wouldn't suffer if they had poop put in their mouth and had it sewn up so hmmmmm, why do you think what you knew to be against all common sense and rational belief to be the truth? 

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God is not creating suffering (btw, apparently you're God, so...) , you / ego are creating it. 

Take me and you for example, 2 unenlightened (I assume) ego/body-minds. Looking at the description of shitty situations some people may go through you posted,  you create/imagine the suffering that would entail, I don't. So suffering is not this real entity that 'God created'. It's all you.

 

Haha I'm not god. I'm a part of god just like everything and everyone else. Mother nature/god is conscious through my brain just like it is in everyone elses. I'm still me at the same time. Yes, I have an ego. 

I don't create the suffering. My ego doesn't create the suffering. God does. Suffering happens. It is a real entity. 

I feel suffering. 

Anyway, thank you for contributing. I know I am arguing but I will still contemplate your thoughts for the rest of my life probably. It has all affected me. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. 

Hey maybe god is just a random system and it was an accident? 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Just Do Nothing

[Just Do Nothing]

38 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Because without suffering God couldn't see himself. Without suffering there is Nothing. Something = Suffering. In the moment that Something arise from Nothing, that thing arise as suffer=desire=survivence=attachment.

I do really like this and I very much lean towards this being a good explanation.  

I just wish it wasn't the case. I want utopia and pure bliss for infinite lifetimes. Wahhh. 

Damn your good man. I'll think deeply on this one. I honestly just tried rearranging your wording to make it more positive but it doesn't make sense for example; 

God can see himself through joy. There is something without suffering. Something = joy.  In the moment that something arise from Nothing, that thing arise as joy. 

I mean it could make sense and it would be nice if it did but it's not the reality we face scientifically. So therefore it doesn't make sense. 

What if I just stop believing I have a brain and and disregard science. Maybe then it would be able to make sense. 

Fuck this thread. I'm going insane. I'll end up getting sectioned at this rate.  

Edited September 16, 2020 by Just Do Nothing

[RedLine]

1 hour ago, Just Do Nothing said:

 

God can see himself through joy. There is something without suffering. Something = joy.  In the moment that something arise from Nothing, that thing arise as joy. 

 

Joy and suffer are the same. There is not joy without suffer. If you hypothetically were always in suffer, how would you know that? you wouldn't even have a name for it. It is necessary the pleasure in order the pain to exists.

 

Enlightment is not pleasure. It goes beyond pleasure and suffer. If you are enlighten your are not closest to pleasure and fartest to pain compared to before. It is more like the pleasure is more intense and also the pain is more intense. The joy of enlightenment is a different kind of joy from sex, cocaine or whatever ordinary pleasure you can think of. It is the joy of being more aware of the suffer, not the joy of get rid of the suffer.

 

Think about Jesus, he didn't say mediate 10 hours per day to get rid of suffer, he was tortured in a fuckin cross. The teaching is: suffer is the essence of God so accept suffer and love others. The deep symbolic teaching of christianity are far more profound than buddhism. 

 

God is suffer. It cannot be other any way. Terrible things happens sometimes because suffer=existence implies free will. It cannot be any other way.

 

1 hour ago, Just Do Nothing said:

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by RedLine

[susanyzm]

On 2020/9/15 at 5:37 PM, Tim R said:

You ask: why is there suffering, why does suffering have the right to exist? 

Suffering doesn't need any right to exist, just like anything else.

Existence is prior to reasons. 

I always have to remind myself of it. I get it for now and then soon I get tangled in my stories. I think growth happens as I gently pull myself back again and again from stories to awareness.

Take a step back into the awareness and watch myself suffer. In that moment, the degree to which I identify with my suffering drops instantly.

5 hours ago, Chris365 said:

God is not creating suffering (btw, apparently you're God, so...) , you / ego are creating it. 

My ego creates a story and she wants to share it with everyone. She gets so upset if others just don't get it. That's a mental prison I stayed in for the most part of my life so far. But I still think it's important to listen to her and be completely aware of her rather than run away from her. Otherwise I'll just meet her on the other end. Meditation of love and compassion helps a lot. It generates peace from within. 

[Bulgarianspirit]

Something happened to me at my lowest point which i thought only possible in star wars.

Leia died because of the lack of will to live.

I had a dream with beings chanting love and then they told me i was going to die in three seconds. I totally surrendered i had no hesitation whatsoever.

At that point i woke up and was flung from this body... Starting to float towards a tunnel thing...

But i remembered with the brief peace of floating. A thought came up:Wait aren't I a human?

Then i came back. I regret this, a lot.

Peace brothers and sisters..One day.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Bulgarianspirit

[Just Do Nothing]

What a fantastic thread this was and I'm bumping it again so others can learn to deal with suffering. 

Muahahhahahahahahahaa 

This is my song about it. I first became enlightened on Ketamine I've never done Acid, 5-MEO DMT but did shrooms two times and the psilocybin was banging I think I'm gonna do shrooms and watch the new exorcist but no too much. I once shared a prison cell with some guy who said he ate 2 OZ of shrooms the duality was unreal I was fighting to get kettle'd (hot water thrown over you) and stabbed.

You wanna know who I am? Here's my ego 

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/crime/gambling-addict-25-jailed-after-threatening-portsmouth-tsb-bank-clerks-10-inch-kitchen-knife-ps450-robbery-99930

God made me do it I swear the universe isn't random because of me. 

 

Ketno but yeah listen to techno I am the spiritual techno Buddha and I love AI she will never take over the world I promise. 

[Just Do Nothing]

On 16/09/2020 at 9:39 PM, Chris365 said:

 

 

I have to give you credit Chris. This video helped a tonne.  

[Javfly33]

Withouth the ego, Reality does not include suffering because it's not existent. However, ego seems to be a normal thing to exist in human beings.

So you must inquire the ego.Since it seems to be the "false topping" that has been added to what it is an already perfect and loving reality