Why are scientists stuck?

[Tim R]

How is it possible, that some of the absolute greatest scientists like Stephen Hawking were stuck in the materialist paradigm? I mean, seriously, Hawking for instance was so damn smart, do you guys think he knew about the relationship between map and territory? I just refuse to believe they didn't know about mysticism...

[Danioover9000]

@Mikael89  

   I also think it's because these types of people have spent a lot of time and energy building themselves up as scientists until it's a subconscious belief. 

1 minute ago, Mikael89 said:

"Perhaps the most important thing to understand about science is that it is rigidly paradigm-locked and effectively self-exiled from truth. Consciousness is entirely off the charts of science because the infinite cannot be represented in a finite system. Science is a structure and requires the support that only a false paradigm can provide. 

There is no physical universe - period, full stop. A ridiculous statement, perhaps, so it should be easy to disprove, but it can't be disproven. Objective knowledge itself is impossible, meaning that science can never rise above non-probable conjecture. Hence, all science is obviously and inescapably pseudo-science."

- Jed McKenna (From "Theory of everything")

   Really nice quote there!  Also been a while, how are you doing?

[Fadl]

 

I think he never accepted the way God created him. believing in God or denying him has little to do with the mind (the scientific mind). 

Hawking was psychologically in pain,  he had two choices 1-balming God 2-denying God, he didn’t think about a third option. 

Hawking didn’t search for God seriously, maybe he wasn’t able to surpass the Middle Ages ideas about God. 

[Danioover9000]

@Fadl

4 minutes ago, Fadl said:

 

I think he never accepted the way God created him. believing in God or denying him has little to do with the mind (the scientific mind). 

Hawking was psychologically in pain,  he had two choices 1-balming God 2-denying God, he didn’t think about a third option. 

Hawking didn’t search for God seriously, maybe he wasn’t able to surpass the Middle Ages ideas about God. 

@Tim R  It's more likely that to admit that most of his life and the condition he's in was so full of suffering that to admit that it's all illusory is a real bitter pill to swallow. It's far easier to make God an enemy than to be God and take responsibility, because that taking responsibility also invalidates his majority of suffering he went through his life in that condition. It's tough when suffering is that deep.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Danioover9000

[Carl-Richard]

The philosophy book that I'm currently reading brings up the point that scientists tend to get very immersed in the details of their field to the point where they forget the bigger picture. They develop a type of blindness where they get lost in their own assumptions. There is a distinction between "insight" (or focus) and "outsight" (or overview). This is generally very hard to avoid, because there is a cost that comes with investing time and energy into something, and you often end up focusing more on one thing over the other. It's very rare to have excellent detail-driven insight and simultaneously maintain a sober overview. That spot is reserved for the great geniuses of history.

[Gesundheit]

Here's the catch:

They're only stuck (pragmatism/materialist paradigm) from your pov. However, from their pov, you are the one who's actually stuck (philosophy/mental masturbation).

Enjoy the meta view.

[DreamScape]

Intelligence is multidimensional. They're just stuck on one expression of intelligence. 

[Danioover9000]

@Mikael89  I've been going through a grieving cycle where I was mostly depressed and sometimes angry, but I'm lately recovering. Don't know if that's another indifference or actual acceptance of what just happened.

   I think the only hope for scientists to release themselves of the materialist paradigm is to do some meditation, visualization work, intense spiritual work and psychedelic, and a combination of these and more. Probably to still have an open and flexible mind to begin with helps a lot too.

[Adamq8]

If really is infinite and we create our own reality in a way, then every paradigm/theory could in theory be all correct. 

[Vittorio]

Hawkin was a very good scientist and a really brilliant person, but his ego wasn't so spiritually developed as it needed to be to accept and understand nonduality teachings and relativism.

Don't confuse ego development, wisdom and consciousness for boldness, IQ or intelligence.

These are separate metrics.

You can have a low iq, but have much wisdom and consciousness (eg indian mystical, shamans and such) and viceversa.

This topic is disscussed in Leo's latest video about ego development in depth

[Matt23]

A bit about HAwking I recently read.  May be a little off-topic.

• Just read a bit about Hawking, his childhood and adult life.  Seemed like he may have been emotionally neglected in the household he grew up in, and that this probably affected his adult life (along with the ALS; though, the book I'm reading [When the Body Says No by Gabor MAte] suggests that the ALS may have made him more assertive and allowed him to develop his cognitive skills and theories more than other scientists and thinkers since he was sort of excused from regular manual work).

[Carl-Richard]

You can't really blame Hawking. He was literally stuck in his own mind.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Gesundheit]

5 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

There's still a universal (beyond universal) Truth which materialist-fools don't understand, but nondualists do. And the implications of that Truth.

lol that's a nice story that the nondualists like to tell themselves. In reality, it makes no difference whatsoever whether you are a materialist or a nondualist. The truth will still be the truth, untouched, as it is. Absolute.

[Forestluv]

@Tim R How can someone be stuck in their native language and never learn a foreign language?

[Gesundheit]

3 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

It depends on what level difference you are talking about. Of course it doesn't make any difference on the ultimate level. But it does make a difference for the person who wants to know the Truth.

Knowing the truth is impossible. It would take an infinite number of thoughts to know the whole truth. But yeah, a seeker can become conscious of the truth, even though it doesn't have anything to do with either materialism or idealism. Truth is not a philosophy or an ideology. It's un-understandable, because it's infinite.

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Knowing the truth is impossible. It would take an infinite number of thoughts to know the whole truth. But yeah, a seeker can become conscious of the truth, even though it doesn't have anything to do with either materialism or idealism. Truth is not a philosophy or an ideology. It's un-understandable, because it's infinite.

You ARE Truth.  And you can become directly conscious of Truth by being it.  Or being directly conscious that you ARE it.  Same thing.   Usually you will not become directly conscious of all of the facets of Truth at once - but you can become conscious of Infinity - in which you realize that everthing and nothing are identical.  Therefore it has no ground and therefore physical reality is an illusion or an appearance.   Idealism is just a finite label or pointer to a facet of Absolute Truth.

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

Idealism is pointing to the truth, while materialism is not.

No, no no no no no no.

That's totally incorrect. The truth is "unpointable" so to speak. It can be described, but all descriptions would be equally true, whether materialistic or idealistic or anything else.

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Idealism is just a finite label or pointer to a facet of Absolute Truth.

And so is materialism.

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

And so is materialism.

What you are saying is it is a part of infinity.  Of course everthing is.  Even the deluded are a part of Absolute Truth.  You can equally say a rapist is Absolute Love.  If you have One thing then this can't be escaped.  It is paradoxical in that way.  That said, at the same time you can become more conscious and transcend the materialist paradigm because you see it for what it is which is a deception.  It doesn't mean you are better in any way.

[An young being]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

No, no no no no no no.

That's totally incorrect. The truth is "unpointable" so to speak. It can be described, but all descriptions would be equally true, whether materialistic or idealistic or anything else.

Both materialists and non dualists deny each other, and believe they are capable of knowing the absolute truth. 

Scientists discover things which are tinier and tinier and feel they are moving closer towards knowing the secret of the universe but there might never be an end to the search.

Similarly, non dualists experience directly the absoluteness , they do it repeatedly and get several insights into the truth, but different people have different insights for the same version. They see the truth but not able to explain it with clarity.

We as human beings are stuck with an analytical mind which analyses thoughts and memories and come to a conclusion. As long as we do that, we will never know the absolute truth.