Attention All! -- New, Stricter Quality Guidelines Now In Effect

[meow_meow]

Why would this even come as a surprise?

If (most) society already needs laws so that there would be atleast some sort of order, how could internet be any different, especially forums where there are discussions about politics/religion.

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, meow_meow said:

Why would this even come as a surprise?

If (most) society already needs laws so that there would be atleast some sort of order, how could internet be any different, especially forums where there are discussions about politics/religion.

Because obviously words are just words.

[meow_meow]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Because obviously words are just words.

Yes and jail cell is just a room.

[Gesundheit]

@meow_meow I would have slapped you for that answer, but unfortunately we're on the internet and I can't do it.

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@Forestluv What you're saying is in no way exclusive to moderators/Leo.

Of course not. You specifically singled out mods. It can apply to anyone.

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@Forestluv A lot of highly developed people are on the forum as well, and they disagree with Leo. That doesn't make them underdeveloped, but just honest.

Imagine a basic Spanish student disagreeing with a native Spanish speaking teacher. That is very different than two native speaking Spanish teachers disagreeing with each other. They are at different levels.

When a student disagrees with me about concepts of Genetics, there can be some value in that. Yet that is a very different dynamic than when I’m having a discussion with a fellow geneticist. In terms of learning, a problem arises when a student thinks they already know it all. They think they know as much as someone with 20 years of experience and tens of thousands of hours of research and study. And then try to argue as if any idea they hold is equivalent or superior. I see this all the time in science. Someone who has a wiki level understanding of cell bio starts lecturing me on cell bio. When I try to reveal the limitations, I’m labeled an arrogant academic that was brainwashed by mainstream science. Any partial inaccuracies I point out becomes “You are censoring me! You are tryin to cancel me! My idea that I heard from a YTuber is more valid than your 20 years of dedicated research and study of this idea”.  And we end up with a coronavirus hoax meme infecting people’s minds. It’s like people spend a few days learning a handful of foreign words and now think they have full fluency of the language.

[meow_meow]

17 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@meow_meow I would have slapped you for that answer, but unfortunately we're on the internet and I can't do it.

I would have called you in a lot of different names (which are just words) but we have new rules (which are also just words) so I can't do it.

[Gesundheit]

@Forestluv I think you're being a little bit too generous here to assume that either mods or Leo can claim such levels. Especially when it comes to spirituality, you can never know other people's life experiences and insights and their depth. To me, it's rather stupid to evaluate insights based on the source/person. Everyone is prone to delusion equally. And we can derive insights from a meatball. So I can't really see the point here, unless you mean you've figured everything out and you're on top of the world and therefore can never learn anymore.

But let's put all that behind and focus on the main point: I've never seen two "native speaking Spanish teachers" disagreeing on anything here on the forum.

Also, don't you think it's arrogant to assume that all others that disagree with Leo are always at a "student" level? Maybe sometimes, but always? Come on. Just because some people show their disagreements in different ways than you wish for does not automatically make them at a "student" level. The level of insight does not have to necessarily match the level of expression. Some people are better at expression than others. That doesn't make the insights of those others of less value or less truth. These are two different parameters. I may suck at communicating my insights to a materialist. That doesn't mean he's correct, obviously.

[Gesundheit]

@meow_meow

You asked a question, and I gave you an answer.

40 minutes ago, meow_meow said:

Why would this even come as a surprise?

??

37 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Because obviously words are just words.

Maybe I should have been clearer. In real life, your life is at stake. You have to make rules to protect yourself from psychopaths and criminals. The internet is very different. You can't kill others with words.

Of course you can argue about the impact of words and its importance, but that's your responsibility for the most part. Otherwise, you shouldn't use the internet. There are a lot of disturbing stuff on there. Plus, it's impossible to know the outcome of any communication. Leo may say that everything is love, and then as a result you may go and break-up with your bf/gf, or even worse, go and kill others because everything is love.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Forestluv]

21 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@Forestluv I think you're being a little bit too generous here to assume that either mods or Leo can claim such levels. Especially when it comes to spirituality, you can never know other people's life experiences and insights and their depth. To me, it's rather stupid to evaluate insights based on the source/person. Everyone is prone to delusion equally. And we can derive insights from a meatball. So I can't really see the point here, unless you mean you've figured everything out and you're on top of the world and therefore can never learn anymore.

Also, don't you think it's arrogant to assume that all others that disagree with Leo are always at a "student" level? Maybe sometimes, but always? Come on. Just because some people show their disagreements in different ways than you wish for does not automatically make them at a "student" level. The level of insight does not have to necessarily match the level of expression. Some people are better at expression than others. That doesn't make the insights of those others of less value or less truth. These are two different parameters. I may suck at communicating my insights to a materialist. That doesn't mean he's correct, obviously.

To me, you seem to be conflating horizontal and vertical dimensions. Horizontal transfers are of course important, yet you seem off balance in that direction. When I teach a science class, everyone in the room is both student and teacher. That is a horizontal dimension and has value. Each of us are both learning and teaching. The problem with that is it’s contracted. I am ALSO the teacher and they are the students along a vertical axis. This is also important. Without the vertical access, learning and growth is highly inefficient. Yet there is also a problem going too extreme to the vertical axis and contracting within that.

Some people have a very difficult time with the vertical axis because it involves aspects of self surrender. 

21 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

 

But let's put all that behind and focus on the main point: I've never seen two "native speaking Spanish teachers" disagreeing on anything here on the forum.

Then perhaps you aren’t fluent in Spanish. Are you open to the possibility that Tier2 ‘disagreements’ can be distinct from Tier1 ‘disagreements?”. Might there be a pre/trans dilemma in which one cannot discern the two forms? 

Could I have had disagreements with Leo and other Mods that you cannot recognize because it doesn’t fit what you think a ‘disagreement’ should look like?

I see the forum as a forest we are all exploring together AND a classroom in which we are learning and growing.

[Opo]

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@meow_meow 

You can't kill others with words.

Of course you can argue about the impact of words and its importance, but that's your responsibility for the most part. Otherwise, you shouldn't use the internet. There are a lot of disturbing stuff on there.

Yes you can. People who demonize groups of people have been named in terrorist manifestos. 

Closing the internet doesn't help against a terrorist with a gun. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Opo

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

To me, you seem to be conflating horizontal and vertical dimensions. Horizontal transfers are of course important, yet you seem off balance in that direction to me. When I teach a science class, everyone in the room in both student and teacher. That is a horizontal dimension and has value. We are each both learning and teaching. The problem with that is it’s contracted. I am ALSO the teacher and they are the students along a vertical axis. This is also important. Without the vertical access, learning and growth is highly inefficient. Yet there is also a problem going too extreme to the vertical axis and contracting within that.

This is a really good way to put it. You excel at expression. I sincerely admire that. However, I'm saying that on the vertical axis, we can take turns. Leo is not always the teacher, and we are not always the students. This taking turns dynamic is very valuable, and imo it would be a shame to dismiss it.

5 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Then perhaps you aren’t fluent in Spanish.

Even if I was, I would still be humble. But no, I'm not.

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Are you open to the possibility that Tier2 ‘disagreements’ can be distinct from Tier1 ‘disagreements?”.

Sure. Show me one example of this on the forum.

[meow_meow]

@Gesundheit

I think you've completely missed the point of these rules.
Its sot that the content doesn't get flooded with idiotic shit posts & comments that have absolutely no contribution to spirituality/self-help/politics etc.

[Gesundheit]

@meow_meow

And what about this most recent one?

 

[meow_meow]

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@meow_meow

And what about this most recent one?

 

What about it? A newbie started a topic where he expresses his views. He expresses them in a teaching type of way. Information, probably, is spiritually incorrect, and because of that the topic got locked.

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, meow_meow said:

A newbie started a topic where he expresses his views.

Doesn't sound like a newbie to me. They seemed to have a certain level of realization, and imo they deserve a chance to get more clarity or offer better explanations for what they said. Nothing inflammatory or trollish about that thread.

6 minutes ago, meow_meow said:

He expresses them in a teaching type of way.

Imo this is irrelevant.

6 minutes ago, meow_meow said:

Information, probably, is spiritually incorrect.

Who knows? The poster didn't even get a chance to reply to my response. Maybe they'll be able to change my understanding.

[Adam M]

@Leo Gura I agree with the decision

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Leo is not always the teacher, and we are not always the students. This taking turns dynamic is very valuable, and imo it would be a shame to dismiss it.

This would be hyper restriction to a vertical axis which also restricts growth. Someone immersed in the horizontal axis will overly judge and criticize the vertical axis. I’ve spent 30 years and 10s of thousands of hours studying, researching, writing, presenting and teaching cellular biology. Along a vertical axis, a freshman student will be no where near that level of experience, knowledge and understanding. Similarly, if I go to China I am a newbie student learning Chinese culture and language. I am no where near the level of Chinese teachers on a vertical axis.

16 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

I'm saying that on the vertical axis, we can take turns. 

I agree this has value, yet a newbie practicing does not make an expert. I often have students give presentations to the class about cell biology. They pretend to be a teacher higher up on the vertical axis. This is great training, yet just because the student is acting like the teacher does not mean they have reached that level. A freshman student pretending to be the teacher while presenting to the class does not have the 20+ years of study, experience, understanding and knowledge of an actual teacher. Not recognizing this is an act of egoic defiance and a block to learning. If I want to learn Chinese, I must realize the Chinese teacher understands Chinese better than I do. 

And this taking turns of being the teacher happens regularly on the forum. Someone may have new insights and realizations - and write a report for others on the forum. Others further on the main path may say “awesome insights! Thanks for sharing! Great realization, keep up the work there is more!”. The problem becomes when a student learning something new now all of a sudden thinks they know it all, becomes dogmatic and has an agenda. For example, a student that has a breakthrough of a difficult genetics concept - and then know think they are the master and have an agenda. That’s a problem in a classroom and that person needs a whack with a zen stick. 
 

26 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Sure. Show me one example of this on the forum.

As finite human characters, you can see things I cannot and vice versa.

Tier2  ‘disagreements‘ seem boring at Tier1 - they don’t have the juicy self-centered competition to be the righteous winner. It’s much more fluid and exploratory.

[Forestluv]

35 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@meow_meow

And what about this most recent one?

 

This is a great example what Im pointing to. Imagine a mind contracted within Paris and thinks Paris is Europe. Realizing that Paris is within France is a major realization and expansion. Yet the problem becomes when the person thinks this expansion is all there is and their new construct is is extrapolated as being full expansion. It’s problematic if they start promoting an agenda that there is no Europe. 

The problem is not so much content, because the content is partially true and an important realization. The problem is structural and the person’s relationship with the content within their mind structure. Partial truths presented as absolute truth are problematic.

[Gesundheit]

8 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

This would be hyper restriction to a vertical axis which also restricts growth. Someone immersed in the horizontal axis will overly judge and criticize the vertical axis. I’ve spent 30 years and 10s of thousands of hours studying, researching, writing, presenting and teaching cellular biology. Along a vertical axis, a freshman student will be no where near that level of experience, knowledge and understanding. Similarly, if I go to China I am a newbie student learning Chinese culture and language. I am no where near the level of Chinese teachers on a vertical axis.

I agree this has value, yet a newbie practicing does not make an expert. I often have students give presentations to the class about cell biology. They pretend to be a teacher higher up on the vertical axis. This is great training, yet just because the student is acting like the teacher does not mean they have reached that level. A freshman student pretending to be the teacher while presenting to the class does not have the 20+ years of study, experience, understanding and knowledge of an actual teacher. Not recognizing this is an act of egoic defiance and a block to learning. If I want to learn Chinese, I must realize the Chinese teacher understands Chinese better than I do.

Sorry, but that does not apply when it comes to spirituality. I could spend 40 years on the path and reach nowhere significant while trying all the techniques, and some other guy who is born naturally talented could realize God and have more clarity even than Sadhguru or Adyashanti. Spirituality is not a science. You don't get insights by adding information, but by removing false information. Awareness is a major component in spirituality, and it's unquantifiable. So I don't know how you're comparing the two.

14 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

And this taking turns of being the teacher happens regularly on the forum. Someone may have new insights and realizations - and write a report for others on the forum. Others further on the main path may say “awesome insights! Thanks for sharing! Great realization, keep up the work there is more!”. The problem becomes when a student learning something new now all of a sudden thinks they know it all, becomes dogmatic and has an agenda. For example, a student that has a breakthrough of a difficult genetics concept - and then know think they are the master and have an agenda. That’s a problem in a classroom and that person needs a whack with a zen stick.

I don't agree with that. New insights are appreciated more often than not only if they're in agreement with former insights. For example, Leo says reality is love. I say it's not, and that that's just a partial truth. This is a direct disagreement that always ends with the same conclusion. Anyone who does not agree with Leo is "not awake", and Ralston is "probably playing coy". I don't want to start a discussion about this. Just giving one example.

23 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

As finite human characters, you can see things I cannot and vice versa.

Tier2  ‘disagreements‘ seem boring at Tier1 - they don’t have the juicy self-centered competition to be the righteous winner. It’s much more fluid and exploratory.

Show me one example.

[Gesundheit]

18 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

This is a great example what Im pointing to. Imagine a mind contracted within Paris and thinks Paris is Europe. Realizing that Paris is within France is a major realization and expansion. Yet the problem becomes when the person thinks this expansion is all there is and their new construct is is extrapolated as being full expansion. It’s problematic if they start promoting an agenda that there is no Europe. 

The problem is not so much content, because the content is partially true and an important realization. The problem is structural and the person’s relationship with the content within their mind structure. Partial truths presented as absolute truth are problematic.

I don't see a valid reason for shutting down the thread though. This is the place for discussing these things after all. Otherwise, why does the forum even exist?