Why is the justice system so ‘nice’ for savages that have no remorse

[SageModeAustin]

Anyone else think they should bring back the “an eye for an eye” justice system? 

 

nowadays u can murder 50 people and get free housing/food. Like wtf? 
 

In a way there’s compassion for these people because they cannot stop themselves from committing these acts but still it irks me that these people aren’t punished more heavily. Can anyone explain this? 

[Fran11]

10 minutes ago, SageModeAustin said:

irks me that these people aren’t punished more heavily. 

You must differentiate punsihment from protecting other people.

Punishment for the sake of it, is low conciousness, because it ignores the external factors (genetics, enviroment) that led the person to commit the crime. It's just revenge seeking. 

Regading actions in order to protect others being insuficient, because of S. Green fanatism maybe, is a different regard and it depends on where you live. I also judge them to be insuficient in my country.

[Hatfort]

Let's take a case of murder.

• Law enforcers can make mistakes, it can be the police officers, forensics, lawyers, judges, anyone in the chain. An innocent man gets convicted and with the "eye for an eye", sentenced to death.
• Law enforcers can be corrupt as well, they may know who the real murderer is, it could even be themselves, so they fabricate evidence to blame someone else. An innocent person gets the death penalty.

We gotta acknowledge that the justice system is not perfect and there have been so many cases of people proven innocent after being executed. You can always get a man out of prison, can't give him those years without freedom back, but at least he is alive. You can't revive a dead man, this should be enough to put the death penalty off the table.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Hatfort

[Consept]

27 minutes ago, SageModeAustin said:

Anyone else think they should bring back the “an eye for an eye” justice system? 

No, this is a very surface level idea. If you look at society systemically youll see there is a reason most violent crime is committed by those in poverty. To a large extent society is responsible for having such wealth discrepancies that it fosters poverty stricken communities. Eye for an eye works on the assumption that everyone has 100% responsibility for their actions and their choices were in no way influenced by external factors. 

in my opinion yes you have to protect the public from violent criminals, but rehabilitation is extremely important and trying to make peoples lives better will benefit society as a whole  

[Preety_India]

How can someone murder 50 people and get free housing, I mean where does this happen? 

I want details. 

 

[Fran11]

Also, underdeveloped societies are usually the ones with the "eye for an eye" philosophy (look at the punishments they use in Middle East, some parts of Africa and some parts of Latinoamerica), and criminal activity is still higher than on more developed regions. 

It doesn't solve anything.

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Fran11

[purerogue]

1 hour ago, Fran11 said:

Also, underdeveloped societies are usually the ones with the "eye for an eye" philosophy (look at the punishments they use in Middle East, some parts of Africa and some parts of Latinoamerica), and criminal activity is still higher than on more developed regions. 

It doesn't solve anything.

 

We are talking about completely different cultural, social and  economical  situations, if we would put people with serious crimes to death in West , it would look completely different and I think would decrease crime for two simple reasons, no recurring crime because they are being set free, less toxic environment that leads other to follow their footsteps.this system is way easier and does its work, no moral reasons involved

It is way harder to balance system from moral standpoints, first you have to chose one to begin with and have to consider all consequences in different areas that it will cause.

From my standpoint reintegrating is by far most challenging to figure out, because it hurts everyone around and is weight that people around them have to carry. 

Edited September 12, 2020 by purerogue

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, SageModeAustin said:

Anyone else think they should bring back the “an eye for an eye” justice system? 

 

nowadays u can murder 50 people and get free housing/food. Like wtf? 
 

In a way there’s compassion for these people because they cannot stop themselves from committing these acts but still it irks me that these people aren’t punished more heavily. Can anyone explain this? 

Your framing suggests that someone who kills 50 people gets rewarded for it. Of course that would be absurd, yet I’m not seeing much of that - at least not in the U.S. I see the U.S. as being much more punishment motivated.

What would you say is the goal of justice? Why would we want to punish people? Do all people who commit crimes deserve punishment? 

I knew a war veteran who had severe PTSD. During the war, he was exposed to horrific atrocities. He returned to the U.S. with severe PTSD and was marginalized and stigmatized by much of the public. He did his best to help other vets that suffered. During his PTSD episodes, he couldn’t differentiate his environment from war and regular life and sometimes lashed out - he would scream at his girlfriend and even hit her a few times. Afterwards, he would suffer in extreme guilt and shame. He had no health care and the VA wouldn’t see him because he wasn’t suicidal. He got so desperate he ingested a bottle of pills and suffered terribly for two days, yet survived. He still couldn’t get into the VA. One night he had a PTSD breakdown and saw his girlfriend as a threat and starting hitting her. She called the police. As armed police officers arrived to arrest him, he went down into the basement and shot himself in the head.

We need to reconsider how we view punishment. How can we put 100% responsibility on this man and imprison him for domestic violence. This man was ill and needed help. It all started with him trying to be patriotic and serving the country as he went to an unjust war and ordered to commit and view atrocities. Upon his return he is mentally ill, yet stigmatized by society which makes his mental illness worse. He is desperate for help, yet there are inadequate social services. Militarized police come after him. Who has contributed to this situation? The military industrial complex seeking profits and oil? A public stigmatizing our wounded veterans? Extreme wealth inequality with mega billionaires and no basic social services? A militarized police force? A traumatized veteran? Who do you consider to be the “savage”?

It’s not so simple as “He broke the law and should be punished”.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, SageModeAustin said:

nowadays u can murder 50 people and get free housing/food. Like wtf? 

You call max security prison for life free housing and food??

Lol

You are aware that prisoners are often forced to work for slave wages? Something like 50 cents per day.

[SageModeAustin]

@Forestluv Dang i'm sorry to hear that. That sounds really rough. You're right

@Fran11 Interesting. Good to know. 


Update to everyone: I realized that it is a greater punishment to sit in prison with your own thoughts and realizing what you have done/feeling emotions is a much better punishment than death. Facing your sins or 'karma' is the ultimate punishment. At that point they want to die anyways, so Its best to keep them alive so they can comprehend their ego-ness. I changed my mind about the death penalty though. All of you guys had valid points. Ty.

@Leo Gura I didn't know they had to work, good 2 know thanks

@Preety_India  i'm talking about jail..they give u free food and housing

 @Hatfort I'm talking about people that are clearly guilty.

@Consept imho some people aren't recoverable unless they seek 'God' relentlessly and it chooses to forgive them. A lot of these savages come back out and end up murdering, raping again within the hour because they are powerless over themselves. 

@purerogue Yea agreed, re-integrating without death-penalty is hard. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by SageModeAustin

[Preety_India]

@SageModeAustin  ahh!! I see. 

Lmao. 

You can't call that free housing and food lol. That's jail. 

Do you want criminals in jails to be without beds and without food? Then that would make a society a bigger criminal. 

You do realize that even criminals have basic human rights. 

You can't expect them to suffer. They are housed in jails in order to keep them off the streets.

Also most jails have pastors visiting them and there are rehabilitation programs for prisoners to get better mentally and spiritually. 

At the base of everything, it comes down to punishing the sin and not the sinner 

Because even a sinner is a human. They need to be given chances to improve or do better to be better prisoners. But they will need to carry out their sentence nevertheless. 

That's the least that a society can do for prisoners. 

If a prisoner has to die, they have to die legally under a death sentence imposed by law or constitution. 

Otherwise his death would be another instance of injustice. 

A Red System would want a prisoner to have no rights and be executed without fair trial.. 

Whereas a Stage Green system recognizes the human rights of prisoners and want them to be treated humanely 

Two wrongs don't make right. 

Just because criminals commit wrong does not give us the right to do wrong to them. We as a society also have constitutional duties. 

Therefore it's constitutionally wrong to expect a criminal to suffer or inflict suffering on them in the name of punishment because they can be easily abused and their rights ignored. 

The jail is a place to serve punishment which also involves supervision and probation. Good behavior is rewarded with more freedoms and bad behavior is punished with solitary confinement. 

Jail is not an easy life. Rapes and assaults are very common.. In fact many guards take advantage of the very same demonizing mentality to rape and torture prisoners. 

We live in a progressive world where any form of violence is still violence, any form of brutality is still brutality, any form of abuse is still abuse 

The prisoner is only expected to serve their sentence. 

 

 

[Consept]

23 minutes ago, SageModeAustin said:

imho some people aren't recoverable unless they seek 'God' relentlessly and it chooses to forgive them. A lot of these savages come back out and end up murdering, raping again within the hour because they are powerless over themselves. 

I'd disagree, there's plenty of statistics that show more rehabilitation focused policies are very successful. This is about a prison in Norway - 

"Norway’s humane approach towards prisoners seems effective: only 20% prisoners are reconvicted within two years, almost half the rate of many US states, even though only hard cases—which are more likely to offend—are incarcerated to begin with. Amidst a global climate where the number of prisoners is steadily rising, the drop in both incarceration and re-offending rates in liberal European countries seemingly proves that a less prison-focused justice system is effective in reducing crime."

Full story here if you're interested - https://www.prisonersabroad.org.uk/news/rehabilitation-not-recidivism-norways-success-in-keeping-re-offending-rates-low

But yeah the stats and studies more often than not show the effect of rehabilitation focus is much better than punishment focus. A big issue of why governments don't switch is that sometimes to be elected you have to be seen as 'hard on crime', so it takes a more evolved country to have this focus. 

[Fran11]

On 12/9/2020 at 3:43 PM, purerogue said:

We are talking about completely different cultural, social and  economical  situations.

That's precisely the point, eye for an eye philosophy and unusual punishment are signs of low social developement.

Death penality is not necessarily eye for an eye, it depends on how it is treated and used by a particular society.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Fran11

[Gidiot]

@Consept watch the movie “where to invade next” by Michael Moore and go to the bit about Norway and their prisons . I had a stage green moment and cried my eyes out haha