Posted September 13, 2020 14 minutes ago, Consept said: Do you disagree with the findings of the bi-partisan senate panel? I mean I have not read whole 1000 pages and it is not possible for me to confirm how correct all of them are, but they are probably pretty accurate, What you want me to disagree with, or agree with? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 13, 2020 48 minutes ago, purerogue said: I mean I have not read whole 1000 pages and it is not possible for me to confirm how correct all of them are, but they are probably pretty accurate, What you want me to disagree with, or agree with? "A sprawling report released Tuesday by a Republican-controlled Senate panel that spent three years investigating Russia’s interference in the 2016 election laid out an extensive web of contacts between Trump campaign advisers and Kremlin officials and other Russians, including at least one intelligence officer and others tied to the country’s spy services. The report by the Senate Intelligence Committee, totaling nearly 1,000 pages, drew to a close one of the highest-profile congressional investigations in recent memory and could be the last word from an official government inquiry about the expansive Russian campaign to sabotage the 2016 election. It provided a bipartisan Senate imprimatur for an extraordinary set of facts: The Russian government disrupted an American election to help Mr. Trump become president, Russian intelligence services viewed members of the Trump campaign as easily manipulated, and some of Mr. Trump’s advisers were eager for the help from an American adversary." This is from the New York Times, basically giving a summary of the findings, would you disagree? If you liked whatever i said in this post, check out my youtube channel for actual me talking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 13, 2020 @Forestluv Did you watch the video? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 13, 2020 (edited) On 9/12/2020 at 11:48 AM, SunCat said: @louhad @Consept Trump increased tensions with Russia because he pulled out of the INF treaty; he bombed and killed Russia's ally Soleimani; he attempted several coups in Venezuela and succeeded in installing a coup in Bolivia, both of which go against Russia's geopolitical interest; he supports and listens to Russia's geopolitical enemy, Saudi Arabia; he wants to build a pipeline in Syria, which Russia doesn't want. This idea that Trump is working for Putin is absurd. Edited September 13, 2020 by SunCat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, SunCat said: @Consept Trump increased tensions with Russia because he pulled out of the INF treaty; he bombed and killed Russia's ally Soleimani; he attempted several coups in Venezuela and succeeded in installing a coup in Bolivia, both of which go against Russia's geopolitical interest; he supports and listens to Russia's geopolitical enemy, Saudi Arabia; he wants to build a pipeline in Syria, which Russia doesn't want. This idea that Trump is working for Putin is absurd. I havent really got a strong opinion on it, im just interested in whether people would disagree with a Republican-controlled senate panel on the issue. Would you disagree with them? If you liked whatever i said in this post, check out my youtube channel for actual me talking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 13, 2020 @SunCat Some of it. I don’t have time to watch every 30min+ video users post - especially for arguments that have already been discussed ad nausea on the forum.. There have been hundreds of “Russiagate” posts on the forum expressing your view. This isn’t new stuff. The view of “Russian interference is a hoax by Democrats” gets into conspiracy theory territory and misinformation - which will likely get locked down and warnings if persist. There needs to be a more nuanced view to make the cut on the forum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Consept said: "A sprawling report released Tuesday by a Republican-controlled Senate panel that spent three years investigating Russia’s interference in the 2016 election laid out an extensive web of contacts between Trump campaign advisers and Kremlin officials and other Russians, including at least one intelligence officer and others tied to the country’s spy services. The report by the Senate Intelligence Committee, totaling nearly 1,000 pages, drew to a close one of the highest-profile congressional investigations in recent memory and could be the last word from an official government inquiry about the expansive Russian campaign to sabotage the 2016 election. It provided a bipartisan Senate imprimatur for an extraordinary set of facts: The Russian government disrupted an American election to help Mr. Trump become president, Russian intelligence services viewed members of the Trump campaign as easily manipulated, and some of Mr. Trump’s advisers were eager for the help from an American adversary." This is from the New York Times, basically giving a summary of the findings, would you disagree? As I have stated before, my problem is not with information gathered about possible Russia involvement in this matter, but about games media , other side plays to make it look like he is evil and they are the good guys, have they ever called out people for information that got leaked, it even had almost no mainstream media coverage, it is like they can do most horrendous things and everyone will turn blind eye to it like nothing ever happened. So back to the topic,I can't really see issue with giving information that is true about someone who is running for president, even if it is obtained in such manner, both sides are doing it, so both sides are manipulating election no matter how you look at it. Only reason why I am not giving clear answer to your question is because it is misleading, just as this whole circus is to mislead people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 13, 2020 24 minutes ago, purerogue said: Only reason why I am not giving clear answer to your question is because it is misleading, just as this whole circus is to mislead people. You could give a clear answer if you focused on this question. It's not a trick question and I'm not talking about media or Democrats or anything else, I'm talking about a republican-majority senate panel that concluded there was collusion. It's very simple this panel (majority of which are trumps party) said something which I've summarised for you, do you disagree with it or do you agree with it? Try answering without talking about the other side, let's just focus on this side for now. Again I have no strong opinion, I'm not from the US, its just a question If you liked whatever i said in this post, check out my youtube channel for actual me talking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 29 minutes ago, Consept said: You could give a clear answer if you focused on this question. It's not a trick question and I'm not talking about media or Democrats or anything else, I'm talking about a republican-majority senate panel that concluded there was collusion. It's very simple this panel (majority of which are trumps party) said something which I've summarised for you, do you disagree with it or do you agree with it? Try answering without talking about the other side, let's just focus on this side for now. Again I have no strong opinion, I'm not from the US, its just a question It is not about it being trick question, it is about making wrong conclusion about my opinion based on simple answer. Quote The Russian government disrupted an American election to help Mr. Trump become president- I believe it is true, but it is not a fact, take it as you want. Quote Russian intelligence services viewed members of the Trump campaign as easily manipulated, and some of Mr. Trump’s advisers were eager for the help from an American adversary Second part of this statement looks more like something you write in elementary school when you did something, either way feels out of place from main question. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, purerogue said: I believe it is true, but it is not a fact What is your belief it’s true based upon? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 Just now, Forestluv said: What is your belief it’s true based upon? Based on having no doubt that both parties are capable of such actions and there being evidence suggesting that it could be true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, purerogue said: Based on having no doubt that both parties are capable of such actions and there being evidence suggesting that it could be true. Can I ask, is there a reason you don't want to out right say the evidence points to there being collusion with Trump and Russia? For example I'd have no problem saying that if a Dem majority senate panel confirmed collusion between Obama and Russia, its a matter of fact thing, but you seem very resistant to give a straight answer. What would actually satisfy you that there was collusion and in fact that's not really a good thing regardless of party? If you liked whatever i said in this post, check out my youtube channel for actual me talking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 6 hours ago, Consept said: Can I ask, is there a reason you don't want to out right say the evidence points to there being collusion with Trump and Russia? For example I'd have no problem saying that if a Dem majority senate panel confirmed collusion between Obama and Russia, its a matter of fact thing, but you seem very resistant to give a straight answer. What would actually satisfy you that there was collusion and in fact that's not really a good thing regardless of party? What am I saying? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 I don’t think I’ve ever watched a video on politics greater than the conscious politics series.... sorry. I just don’t think there is a better teacher in the Internet, maybe a career politician or writer might have a better view but I don’t think many people can tie in a meta view with consciousness like Leo, yes I’m biased towards him but I’ve watched probably 50-100 other youtubers opinions haven’t read many books on politics although but Leo’s seems the most developed. I would also say that he is right more times than not when calling someone out for self bias. you seem to have a hair across your ass about leo, yea he’s flawed but so are you. Trust me we are not blind sheep being led by a wolf, I don’t idolize leo and I certainly don’t agree with him on everything. but also I was wrong about Bernie And progressives and after Nevada in 2020 he lost fair and square. you got to able to admit when you’re wrong when faced with new information. Simply saying leo is biased and can contradict himself isn’t saying anything. That’s literally every human on the planet, paradox(reality) itself is a contradiction, the key is evaluating to what degree. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Gidiot said: I don’t think I’ve ever watched a video on politics greater than the conscious politics series.... sorry. I just don’t think there is a better teacher in the Internet.. The world is much bigger than you think it is. You are mistaking your assumptioms for the absolute. Leo specializes in spirituality concepts, not politics. There is SO much information he does not know because he is not that invested in it. He relies on getting his info from people like Cenk Uygur of TYT and Sam Seder of Majority Report, both of which have major blindspots in politics and critical thinking skills that are limited by their unconscious shadow and Trump Derrangement Syndrome (i say this as a former Bernie supporter). There are ways to criticize Trump, but attacking him for everything that he does or hear he does without enough evidence is sycophantic and counterproductive. Use facts, not conspiracy theories like Russiagate to criticize Trump. @Leo Gura "The people that are most triggered by Trump are people that have Trump as their unconscious shadow. What should trigger you most is what gave us Trump." - Jimmy Dore Also, listening to commentators on yotube is good and all, but if you want a deeper and objective perspective of politics, journalists not bound by corporate interests are more important for obtaining information. Some recommendations: The Grayzone MintPress News Consortium News The Black Agenda Report Popular Resistance Scientific America Common Dreams The Last American Vagabond Edited September 14, 2020 by SunCat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 @SunCat Couldn't you just make those recommendations in the first place, as this is a conscious politics forum? You could have also given your take on the Russian interference or not interference, but being straight about that in the title and maybe not making it about what Leo thinks or said. Why do you care so much? Leo doesn't know all, neither do you or anyone in this forum or in the world. I don't know everything, but I don't see what is so surprising about countries intervening in foreign elections and politics, the USA has been doing it during the whole cold war, as well as the Soviet Union. If actual Russia perceives that an unconscious leader like Trump that divides his country suits better their interests, and that the election is tight, they'll go for it with the tools they have. Tools like the Internet is such a piece of cake not to taste, not only shows trends but affects them. Do you want us to put evidence on the table? Like what. A recording of Putin stating his plans? That's your facts? And what if it happened but nobody recorded it, then it's not true? You don't know everything. Your last comment is full of assumptions and projections. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 2 hours ago, SunCat said: There are ways to criticize Trump, but attacking him for everything that he does or hear he does without enough evidence is sycophantic and counterproductive. What would be an acceptable way to you, to criticise Trump? If you liked whatever i said in this post, check out my youtube channel for actual me talking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 2 hours ago, SunCat said: There are ways to criticize Trump, but attacking him for everything that he does or hear he does without enough evidence is sycophantic and counterproductive. Use facts, not conspiracy theories like Russiagate to criticize Trump. Didn't you say that you believe there was Russian interference? And there is a mountain of evidence showing ties between Trump's team and Russia - financially and via communication. Didn't comprehensive investigations led by a Republican, statements from nonpartisan career diplomats and a Republican-led commission conclude this? How can the substance of this be considered a nonfactual conspiracy theory? Do you think all the investigations led by Republicans and nopartisan U.S. officals and diplomats are "nonfactual". Why on earth would career diplomats be in on a conspiracy theory against the executive branch of the United States? That would be the opposite of what nonpartisan diplomats, spies and intelligence officials do. They try to stop misinformation and conspiracies against the United States? It's irrational to think that Republicans, FBI, CIA and counter-intelligence would all be in a conspiracy theory to harm it's own executive branch of the U.S. that it protects. That itself would be a conspiracy theory. I'm just not buying it. Putting political theater aside, doesn't Trump deserve harsh criticism for this? Don't these events threaten the integrity of American democracy and shouldn't they be taken seriously? To me, you seem to be hyper focused on the childish political theater and not focused on how problematic the behavior and events are. We can say it's unethical for a politician to try to personally gain from unethical, illegal and damaging behavior of a criminal. That is a relatively low conscious level (in this case some Democrats). Yet why get distracted by the immature sideshow from seeing how the unethical and problematic behavior is damaging to our democratic institutions and the welfare of society? Why focus on the behavior of immature children if there is a serious threat to American democracy and wellness? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Forestluv said: Didn't you say that you believe there was Russian interference? And there is a mountain of evidence showing ties between Trump's team and Russia - financially and via communication. No, that was @purerogue 1 hour ago, Forestluv said: Didn't comprehensive investigations led by a Republican, statements from nonpartisan career diplomats and a Republican-led commission conclude this? How can the substance of this be considered a nonfactual conspiracy theory? Do you think all the investigations led by Republicans and nopartisan U.S. officals and diplomats are "nonfactual". Why on earth would career diplomats be in on a conspiracy theory against the executive branch of the United States? That would be the opposite of what nonpartisan diplomats, spies and intelligence officials do. You've learned nothing from "WMDs are in Iraq." 1 hour ago, Forestluv said: They try to stop misinformation and conspiracies against the United States? It's irrational to think that Republicans, FBI, CIA and counter-intelligence would all be in a conspiracy theory to harm it's own executive branch of the U.S. that it protects. That itself would be a conspiracy theory. I'm just not buying it. "Let me tell you: You take on the intelligence community — they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you," - Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer 1 hour ago, Forestluv said: Putting political theater aside, doesn't Trump deserve harsh criticism for this? Don't these events threaten the integrity of American democracy and shouldn't they be taken seriously? To me, you seem to be hyper focused on the childish political theater and not focused on how problematic the behavior and events are. Taking the word of elite authorities without having them provide evidence is problematic. Have you no critical thinking for people that rule over you and have shown to lie in the past? Please read 1984. 1 hour ago, Forestluv said: We can say it's unethical for a politician to try to personally gain from unethical, illegal and damaging behavior of a criminal. That is a relatively low conscious level (in this case some Democrats). Yet why get distracted by the immature sideshow from seeing how the unethical and problematic behavior is damaging to our democratic institutions and the welfare of society? Why focus on the behavior of immature children if there is a serious threat to American democracy and wellness? What behavior are you referring to and what evidence do you have to show that it happened and threatened American democracy? Hopefully it is more important than the actual attacks on democracy that were revealed in Wikileaks, which showed the DNC and Clinton machine rigging the primaries against Bernie in 2016. Or the staggering evidence of actual instances of election interference. This Russia hysteria stuff ain't it. https://youtu.be/ngIKjpucQh8 Edited September 14, 2020 by SunCat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 14, 2020 @Consept How he is continuing the wars even though he said he would get us out. How he is increasing tax cuts to the rich. How he bailed out large corporations during the quarantine. How he increased the military budget. How he keeps war criminals in his cabinet. How he sent in the feds to crack down on protesters. How he refuses to take action against climate change. There are a myriad of other things you can criticize him for that require the minimal amount of evidence to show he's doing it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
