9 Stages of Ego Development VS Spiral Dynamics

[andyjohnsonman]

I know in the first episode of 9 stages of Ego Development Leo talked about the importance of being able to put on different lenses and try to look at this lense without filtering through the spiral dynamics lense which I agree with (even though it is difficult to do). Anyway I do see a lot of similarities:

 

The Symbiotic Stage - Biege

The Opportunist  - Red

The Opportunist - blue 

The expert - orange

Acheiver - Orange

Pluralist - green 

Strategst - yellow

 

Wouldn't you say thats a good thing that they basically back up each others findings? Would you say the main differences are that Spiral dynamics is more about societies where as The 9 stages are about the individual from birth. It seems to me that according to the 9 stages every starts at the first stage but with spiral dynamics as its a society cultural model if you are born into a culture or family that is spiral dynamics stage orange then thats where you start? Would this be accurate or am i way off?

[tuckerwphotography]

Achiever feels like it could encompass both high Orange and low Green. 

Would be curious to hear Leo expand on the differences between SD and ED models. I think he touched on this in the first video but would love to learn more about the similarities and differences. Can one be in a high SD stage but have a low ED level, or vice versa? 

Edited September 10, 2020 by tuckerwphotography

[soos_mite_ah]

I would say that blue would be most like the conformist. 

However, while there are correlations between the stages of ego development and spiral dynamics, I'd be careful with mixing them together because you can be in a higher stage in the spiral but have some hang ups in the lower stages of ego development. 

For example, you could be a green person in terms of values but you're emotionally stunted because you went through an abusive childhood which has caused you to want to seek safety in numbers by fitting in (conformist). 

[Thewritersunion]

They’re blends my friend. Conscious is a complex paintbrush with much paint on it. 

[magickmystik]

below a diagram i found on the internet

[Pernani]

Instead of making another thread, I wanna put a question here that relates to the topic.

We know that SD has many lines of development, among which there's the cognitive line of development. Do the 9 ego stages pertain to only the cognitive line of development? What about other lines like: Moral, Emotional, Career and livelihood... ? And doesn't cognitive development seep into almost all other lines, thus evolving them as it evolves?

[soos_mite_ah]

6 hours ago, Pernani said:

Instead of making another thread, I wanna put a question here that relates to the topic.

We know that SD has many lines of development, among which there's the cognitive line of development. Do the 9 ego stages pertain to only the cognitive line of development? What about other lines like: Moral, Emotional, Career and livelihood... ? And doesn't cognitive development seep into almost all other lines, thus evolving them as it evolves?

I think the 9 stages focuses on the cognitive and emotional line of development while SD focuses more on moral, values, livelihoods etc. There are definitely correlations between 9 stages and SD because your morals, values, and livelihoods are affected by cognition and emotions.

However, it is possible to be emotionally/ cognitively in one place but have your ideals and values to be in another depending on your circumstance. For instance the liberal kids in a high school may be nonconformist in a conformist way (the conformist stage in the 9 stages) while having values of equality (SD stage green) even though the conformist stage in the 9 stages correlates more with SD stage blue. 

That's what I got from it anyway. 

[MaxV]

On 9-9-2020 at 2:47 AM, andyjohnsonman said:

I know in the first episode of 9 stages of Ego Development Leo talked about the importance of being able to put on different lenses and try to look at this lense without filtering through the spiral dynamics lense which I agree with (even though it is difficult to do). 

 

This is exactly what i'm struggling with. i keep making comparisons with the SD model. I also see similarities, but i've been studying spiral dynamics quite heavily. 

Its a nice exercise to try and detach that model when listening to the videos about the 9 stages of ego developement. They're both very valuable models though! I just scratched the surface of the 9 stages one, so i'm really hyped about that one. Spiral Dynamics really enhanced my life in a very positive way.

[andyjohnsonman]

These are very good points which i would like the answers to also. I know with ED all individuals start at the first stage but with SD can't an individual start at blue for example because that is where their culture is at? 

[tuckerwphotography]

1 hour ago, andyjohnsonman said:

These are very good points which i would like the answers to also. I know with ED all individuals start at the first stage but with SD can't an individual start at blue for example because that is where their culture is at? 

@andyjohnsonman We all start at Beige from what I've read, but usually if our culture is, say, at stage Blue, we'd quickly evolve through the first few stages during childhood, assuming there were no major traumas, developmental disabilities, etc. 

To take your question a step further, I was in Portland, OR recently and was curious about all the young people demonstrating at BLM marches. It would seem at first glance that they're mainly Stage Green. But upon closer investigation it seems clear that many are solid Orange and simply conforming to the mainstream culture of that city. But then I was wondering if maybe their Stage Green from a values perspective but their ED is only Achiever or below. Perhaps their values have excelled faster than their ego development considering the community around them has progressed to mostly Green/Orange. Hope this makes sense. Would be curious if anyone has thoughts on this.

[Giancarlo]

15 hours ago, Pernani said:

SD has many lines of development, among which there's the cognitive line of development

SD actually only has one line of development: values.

Moral, emotional, etc development corresponds to other models.

While there seems to be some correlation between SD and ED, they are measuring 2 different things: SD tracks values while ED tracks ego development and meaning-making (pretty much how the ego makes sense of and relates to reality). 

Growth in ED is about sophistication of the meaning-making process. 

Read Ken Wilber's books Integral Spirituality and Integral Psychology for a deep dive into different lines of development.

[andyjohnsonman]

@Giancarlo If this is true what you say then this makes ED maybe more important than SD and would tie in to how you could have stage green values but still be a conformist

Edited September 12, 2020 by andyjohnsonman

[Oliver Saavedra]

Study all models, connect the dots, make your own conclusions. You are the meaning-maker here.

[Matt23]

I wonder how much these things can be actually, in reality, 100% be made distinct from each other and not "bleed" and fluidly mix into each other. 

Our minds seem to be more able to create clear distinctions between things, but is that merely in our own minds (i.e., conceptually) and not actually reality?  

Or, is mind/concept no different from reality?  Thus making clear distinctions a feature or possibility within reality?

ex:  A rainbow  (substitute the different colors in a rainbow for the different models of development, or any other thing you can think of).

• You can see it and see (or make/project) clear distinctions between the different colors.
• But, looking closer, you can see that there's actually no line which divides the colors.  It's a seamless and fluid transition from one to the other, without separation.  Distinct without separation paradox.  
  • "Same same, but different."

• Perhaps this is the same with these models discussed here (and probably many other things in life relating to the mind/concept-reality relationship). 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Matt23

[Oliver Saavedra]

17 minutes ago, Matt23 said:

It's a seamless and fluid transition from one to the other, without separation.  Distinct without separation paradox.  

THIS, totally. That's why I said YOU are the meaning-maker here and that's what matters.

Your external reality and your internal meaning-making-structures feedback on eachother. 

And just as the gradient colors of the rainbows, as our consciousness understands itself in reality the line between internal and external also blurs.

The meaning-maker and the-object-it-makes-meaning-of become one.

[RichnNL]

On 12/09/2020 at 1:38 AM, tuckerwphotography said:

@andyjohnsonman We all start at Beige from what I've read, but usually if our culture is, say, at stage Blue, we'd quickly evolve through the first few stages during childhood, assuming there were no major traumas, developmental disabilities, etc. 

To take your question a step further, I was in Portland, OR recently and was curious about all the young people demonstrating at BLM marches. It would seem at first glance that they're mainly Stage Green. But upon closer investigation it seems clear that many are solid Orange and simply conforming to the mainstream culture of that city. But then I was wondering if maybe their Stage Green from a values perspective but their ED is only Achiever or below. Perhaps their values have excelled faster than their ego development considering the community around them has progressed to mostly Green/Orange. Hope this makes sense. Would be curious if anyone has thoughts on this.

I agree the very progressive type or advanced western type or hippys at least to my interpretation in SD are stage green but in ED I wouldn't even put them at the archiver stage.

[Nivsch]

Expert: early orange

Achiever: late orange - early green

Pluralist: late green - early yellow

Strategist: yellow