The Allure Of Identity

[TrustTheProcess]

4 hours ago, Akemrelax said:

But if a man said he was a woman we would support him...

That’s 2020 American culture for you.

 

Do more research on gender

[Leo Gura]

@Akemrelax If you had different hormones in your body you would feel more like a woman than a man.

Race doesn't quite work that way.

[Akemrelax]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Akemrelax If you had different hormones in your body you would feel more like a woman than a man.

Race doesn't quite work that way.

But now they say gender is not related to biology.

It’s very much in line with pluralist way of thinking.

We need some agreed upon rules to determine people’s gender for society to function. 

[Lyubov]

I for one think it's funny when green goes too far. It's better than when blue or red does it and they end up shooting up a church. 

[Leo Gura]

42 minutes ago, Akemrelax said:

But now they say gender is not related to biology.

All identity is relative.

But of course biology plays a huge role. You identify as human because of your biology. Although of course "human" is still a relative, imaginary, constructed identity.

But it makes more sense for you to identify as human than as a kangroo.

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It’s very much in line with pluralist way of thinking.

Yes, relativity is easily abused.

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We need some agreed upon rules to determine people’s gender for society to function. 

We have them. But all agreed upon rules will be challenged and questioned, which is what is happening.

The fantasy is thinking that we can agree on some rules and that's the end of the story. All rules must evolve and all rules have exceptions.

Conservatives love to play the game of agreeing to some rules and then pretending that these rules were not merely an agreement but objective reality handed down by God.

[Hatfort]

Is it wrong what this woman did? Yeah. Does she deserve to be fired? I think so. Does she deserve to be incarcerated? Well, that sounds like too much for lying, she didn't really directly harm anybody. She should apologize, deal with the consequences of her actions, and then move on.

Related, should these kinds of teachings be exclusively done by those minorities? Well, they know first hand what they are teaching really means, but if a white woman is really interested in those topics, studies them hard because she is passionate about them, and proves herself, I don't see why not. Lying about herself is not the way, I'd say it's insulting for these minorities. Like what Elizabeth Warren did, insisting she was Native American, it feels wrong and it's wrong.

[Danioover9000]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:13 AM, Leo Gura said:

Playing victim is a very popular ego defense strategy.

Start to notice how often people do it, and how often you do throughout your own life.

One of the most sneaky ways people play victim is in intimate relationships.

   Psychopaths have it easy these days.

[Hatfort]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Psychopaths have it easy these days.

What? Easy for what?

[Danioover9000]

@Hatfort

2 hours ago, Hatfort said:

What? Easy for what?

   I'm referring to born psychopaths incapable of emotions, and possibly birth trauma related psychopathy as these types struggle with identity the most towards other people, and some cases to themselves. However the people pretending to be psychopathic as a distraction isn't what I'm referring to..

   I can't believe I have to explain this.

[Hatfort]

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Hatfort

   I'm referring to born psychopaths incapable of emotions, and possibly birth trauma related psychopathy as these types struggle with identity the most towards other people, and some cases to themselves. However the people pretending to be psychopathic as a distraction isn't what I'm referring to.. i

   I can't believe I have to explain this.

And what is what is easy for them these days? To lie? To fake a race? To burn this woman on a pyre? Perhaps at other times they had it easier. Whatever...

[Consept]

Interesting, i think one thing ill say for her is that she has acknowledged what shes done and apologised profusely off her own back as well as far as we can see she wasnt found out. This is very different to Rachel Dolezel, who still hasnt apologised for the deception and is going with the trans-racial line, ie saying she is black and being black is more of a state of mind than genetic. I guess the question is whether it is an overall good despite the deception, probably is, they didnt hurt anyone although some will feel betrayed by it, i think most see it as just a bit funny and by all accounts they did do good things. But it is a bit of an insult because its like getting some advantage of being black without all the disadvantages, theres a feeling that they dont really understand what theyre talking about because if they did they wouldnt have done it in the first place, its a privilege that they can declare themselves black, whereas, even though im half white, i can never declare myself white, not that id want to but just saying. There also seems to be a playing the victim component as well, this is seen in across the board, but especially in the Dolezel case she was overdoing it to an extreme extent, which i dont think is helpful at all. There can be some addiction to the victim mindset and i can see how this was playing it here. 

Second point, do the have an argument in terms of being trans-racial? If we have live in a society where we have over 70 genders, is it that much of a stretch to say a white person could feel black inside? This is where extreme green eats its tail, because on one hand theres the need to be inclusive of all people and what they feel they are, so we can choose from one of 64 genders regardless of hormones, but if you say you are a different race although you might feel as much as that race as someone feels non-binary, its offensive to whatever race youre claiming. So can you not choose your race because its offensive to others and can you choose your gender because theres no way to verify what you are and therefore its not offensive to others? 

 

[Leo Gura]

If there are 70 different genders, you can certainly choose to be whatever race you want.

In theory, there's no reason why a white person couldn't identify with being more black than white. Rapper like Eminem comes to mind. If a white guy grows up in the hood, immersed in black culture, then he's probably more black than white at the level of the mind.

[Consept]

56 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

About the transracial thing:  Blackness is not so much about genetics than being assigned as Black.

Yes youre right this has always been the issue, there were also a lot of black people that could and did pass for white as well as it made their lives easier, not sure it happens as much these days. That is the privilege that Rachel and Jessica have in that they can apparently revert back to whiteness. This is also seen in the music scene, various artists adopt a black persona and make black music which is more accepted as theyre white, or they are able to change their music style to a traditional white genre (Justin Timberlake and Miley Cyrus are 2 examples of this). If a black person were to do this it would most likely still be considered black music, they wouldnt necessarily get a white audience in the same way. So to me it seems black people are locked into an identity whereas white people are free to be more fluid in that way. 

But trans-racial is not really about genetics anyway, its more to do with how you feel inside. I dont agree with it btw but im just saying if you can choose gender you should be able to choose race. So ultimately the question is can you actually choose these things?

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

In theory, there's no reason why a white person couldn't identify with being more black than white. Rapper like Eminem comes to mind. If a white guy grows up in the hood, immersed in black culture, then he's probably more black than white at the level of the mind.

In theory, but in practice i dont think it will go down to well if i as a mixed race black guy started saying im white, it wouldnt go down well amongst black and white people. Obviously it hasnt gone down well for these trans-racial ladies. So are people being ignorant not accepting someone could be trans-racial? It would follow if people are ignorant for not accepting the many genders. Or should we just throw out all classifications of gender and race?

Little relevant comedy to lighten the mood -

 

[LarryW]

6 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

so this is why I call myself black (even though I am brown). 

I wonder why we even use such polarising language as black and white, even though it's clearly not literally true - there's no such thing as black or white skin? It's as if we want to polarise and push ourselves apart instead of using more relative language, such as shades of brown. I for one have decided to opt out and not have a racial identity, but 'none' isn't an option on the questionnaire at work, so I put myself as 'other'.  

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Consept said:

In theory, but in practice i dont think it will go down to well if i as a mixed race black guy started saying im white, it wouldnt go down well amongst black and white people.

Yes, no different than if you were a man in a conservative small town, and started saying you're a woman.

People would look at you like you are insane. Because hardly anyone understands that these categories are mentally and socially constructed.

[LarryW]

34 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Obviously there is white and black skin.

I was being literal about this - putting my hand on a piece of white paper (I used to be 'white British') and noticing the difference. Also comparing people identifying as black (who come in a wide range of shades) with something actually black. My conclusion was that we're on a spectrum with hundreds, possibly thousands of shades between the fairest and darkest skin. Heck, my skin varies in different parts of my body so which part do I choose, my hands, face?  But if whiteness and blackness is obvious to you, that's your perspective which you're absolutely entitled to. 
 

34 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

As I mentioned before, the reason why I call myself black is that society goes through this classification and I can't really dodge their projections.

Yes, this is a good point - when we fill in the  forms and surveys etc, we are entirely free to self-select our identity individually. But we all project onto others, including calling them by a racial grouping without having asked them first how they identify. So my response to this is to resolve to refrain from referencing another person's race without hearing it from themselves first. Not making any assumptions based on external appearances. But I probably won't remember to keep to this without a bit of practice  

Edited September 9, 2020 by LarryW

[Consept]

41 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

The debate trying to compare trans-racialism to transgenderism is wrong in my opinion.

Being a woman or being a man is different because it has to do with our energetic signature, on top of having different biological features and gender roles. Masculinity and feminity aren't a social construct. It is a manifestation of the polarity in nature that translate into our behaviors.

You can be born a man and have a feminine energy. Which you feel and alterate your beingness. It is not an identity, it is who you are.

Except for the socially constructed experience we have got, there is no significant difference between being white or black. Choosing to be white or black seems to me like as interesting as making a whole fuss of whether you are part of the people reputed to have straight hair or curly hair. Racial features shouldn't be made an identity or a focus. I don't think of myself as a 5 finger human, so why should we care about other body parts? And I don't feel in my beingness the fact that I am biracial (okay, except when I start dancing and I've got the swag ). But I have got the social trauma derived from being black deeply integrated in my body. The experience of blackness is the accumulated difference in experience due to being classified as other, reified, and being perceived as less. It is also being trapped in an identity that I didn't choose, which is collectively enforced on me.

Rachel Dolezal has all right to go to the tanning salon to have dark skin and get her hair curly. As long as she doesn't label herself as black. She can look black, change herself to appear black, but she can't claim blackness. She isn't essentialized as black with no option to opt-out.  Wanting to be classified as black is non-sense anyway. Yes. There are people with white skin and a similar genetic poor, yes there are people with dark ones that tend to have similar features. But being black and white with the properties and qualities we derive from it today is nothing but a story. 

In my case, I don't have a choice because people project on me this identity. I don't want it. I wonder, do people really stare at themself in the mirror and identify as being white, or Asian?  I do say that I am black because this is what I am told.

I mean, I do not identify as someone having hair. I just happen to have hair. I just happen to have brown skin. I just happen to be classified as black. It just happens that I exist, people assign a meaning to my features and for them throughout history i could have been put in the position of being a slave, a second class citizen during Jim Crow laws or the apartheid and so forth. Anyone in their right mind under such circumstances should love to escape to that madness. I hope that those ladies, "identifying" as black by mimicking features and behaviors which are part of the story of "being something" would have the sense to drop off of such dehumanizing conditions if shit would suddenly hit the fan. Because I would do it if I were them.

 

Yeah i mean calling someone black or white or blonde or whatever is really a human way to classify people they dont know too well with one easy word. This is done with jobs, your job title doesnt tell people too much about what youre like as a human but its always the first thing people ask a new person. I think we're just not good at accepting people as they are, we tend to look for ways to generalise. 

As you say race is really a construct, however until we all transcend race and ethnicity i think it will be part of your identity, theres no getting around it for now. Personally, i feel black, im not sure how to describe that exactly but its how i feel, it may just be because i was never made to feel 100% included with white people or because media and other influences are telling me im different or because i grew up around black people. But i also feel that there are constraints in terms of what is black, in that acting a certain way means your black, which to me is bullshit, im black but it doesnt define me. 

I think you can compare trans-racial and being a different gender. What youre saying is true you could be male and feminine energy, so it makes sense to have a few genders that incorporate this. But when you add 70 or so then really what were talking about is just how you feel, and if that is accepted then technically you could feel chinese for example. I guess what im pointing out is the pointlessness of the extra genders because i dont agree that its right, within the context that we have 'race', that a white person can all of a sudden say theyre black. The experience is always different than if you were born black. So relatively speaking if that doesnt make sense neither do other classifications based on how you feel.  

[LarryW]

@Etherial Cat  yes, having recently watched Leo's video on Strange Loops (I'm catching up on some older ones), I'm struck by the two-way projection, caught in the loop of language (social constructs) creating physical reality; and physical reality creating language. What's more real, the physical nature of our bodies, or the psychological constructs in our minds. But in view of the inequality and discrimination all over the world, my ideal would be to do away with race, but failing that, to relativise it as much as possible.

Edited September 9, 2020 by LarryW

[Consept]

I find the Dolezal case more strange because she appears deluded in that she literally cant say she is white but feels black. But is it possible to feel black as much as a trans person feels theyre in the wrong body, or is she just fully deluded and if so is it possible that some trans people are deluded? 

Anyway heres Whoopis take on it and then an interview with Dolezal where she got a bit grilled on the subject - 

 

[Lyubov]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If there are 70 different genders, you can certainly choose to be whatever race you want.

In theory, there's no reason why a white person couldn't identify with being more black than white. Rapper like Eminem comes to mind. If a white guy grows up in the hood, immersed in black culture, then he's probably more black than white at the level of the mind.

Yeah I do agree for the most part. The one difference is he probably wouldn't be stereotyped or discriminated against as much by police or bigoted people.