Reference to Leo Gura and Psychedelic States

[Dodo]

35 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

The ever awakened consciousness of the knower is nothing more than the bodily functions and imagination. 

For example what is the knower actually aware of? If you look closely it's just a bundle of concepts ideas thoughts beliefs and perceptions identified with as the knower.

You aren't aware of what's happening at the neighbors house right now; you aren't aware of what's happening at the Fast Stop gas station in Okinawa Japan; you aren't aware of what's happening at the Port Hueneme Transportation yard in California.

The so-called ever awakened consciousness only goes as far as what is directly observed by the human body, learned along the way and imagined....that's it....

I mean it's a cool story and sounds really spiritual, it's just not real unfortunately....

 

 

The same way you dont remember what you were thinking 1 hour ago (different location in time), I don't remember what I was thinking in a "different location in space".

Who told you that those things like neighbor's house, Fast Stop Gas station and Japan are real? They are temporary appearances in awareness. Only awareness is ever present, those different objects you mentioned sometimes appear and sometimes disappear. Check this. Check what never leaves. That's Consciousness, that's you. 

 

[VeganAwake]

2 hours ago, Dodo said:

Sounds cool bro, but awareness/ consciousness / knower cannot be bodily functions and imagination simply because bodily functions and imaginations appear within that space also. Is that not correct? I recommend you do some Neti-neti. 

You are confused about the existence of this space because its not an object, but you can know its reality by being it. You cannot see it, you can be it, actually you cannot not be it.  

Even if it was so, that apparent knowing doesn't matter in any way at all.

Anyone can make a statement about what consciousness is or is not. It doesn't effect apparent existence and in that sense it's not special... there's no meaning purpose or value in believing in ever conscious awareness.

 

[Dodo]

7 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Even if it was so, that apparent knowing doesn't matter in any way at all.

Anyone can make a statement about what consciousness is or is not. It doesn't effect apparent existence and in that sense it's not special... there's no meaning purpose or value in believing in ever conscious awareness.

 

Its not about believing, its about noticing what is true. Noticing that which connects all experiences in one field of knowing. You cant know anything ever without it. You are it, eternally now.

Its not eternal in time for you to have to believe. Eternity is now and you have direct experience of what im saying.

No need for thought to tell you. The thought itself happens in that field. Experence is relative, the space of knowing where experience appears is absolute.

[Adamq8]

3 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Its not about believing, its about noticing what is true. Noticing that which connects all experiences in one field of knowing. You cant know anything ever without it. You are it, eternally now.

Its not eternal in time for you to have to believe. Eternity is now and you have direct experience of what im saying.

No need for thought to tell you. The thought itself happens in that field. Experence is relative, the space of knowing where experience appears is absolute.

+1

[Javfly33]

9 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Even if it was so, that apparent knowing doesn't matter in any way at all.

Anyone can make a statement about what consciousness is or is not. It doesn't effect apparent existence and in that sense it's not special... there's no meaning purpose or value in believing in ever conscious awareness.

 

12 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

The ever awakened consciousness of the knower is nothing more than the bodily functions and imagination. 

For example what is the knower actually aware of? If you look closely it's just a bundle of concepts ideas thoughts beliefs and perceptions identified with as the knower.

You aren't aware of what's happening at the neighbors house right now; you aren't aware of what's happening at the Fast Stop gas station in Okinawa Japan; you aren't aware of what's happening at the Port Hueneme Transportation yard in California.

The so-called ever awakened consciousness only goes as far as what is directly observed by the human body, learned along the way and imagined....that's it....

I mean it's a cool story and sounds really spiritual, it's just not real unfortunately....

 

 

Just take some 5-meo bro and recognize yourself as the CREATOR all of THIS that you are. You been trapped in the advaita no-self narrative for too long ?

[Adamq8]

11 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Just take some 5-meo bro and recognize yourself as the CREATOR all of THIS that you are. You been trapped in the advaita no-self narrative for too long ?

Yeah that will def show infinite imagination?

[WaveInTheOcean]

On 9.9.2020 at 0:38 AM, Leo Gura said:

It is a fact that you can be more conscious than you currently are.

End of story.

Everyone is in the present moment, but that doesn't mean everyone is equally conscious of it.

I'm sick of arguing against this neo-Advaita over-simplified shit which refuses to acknowledge differences in consciousness.

Just because you are surrendered to the present moment does not mean you are deeply conscious of anything.

What I care about is CONSCIOUSNESS, not surrender and not liberation and not freedom from suffering and not lack of ego and not some permanent condition. But CONSCIOUSNESS!

It makes no difference to me how long it lasts or what its consequences are.

It's not that I disagree. Of course, you can always become more conscious. Of course, there are infinite nuances and levels of consciousness.

But isn't 'consciousness' and 'the present moment' synonymous for the same 'no-thing' ?

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Just because you are surrendered to the present moment does not mean you are deeply conscious of anything.

I'd say that 'being deeply conscious of reality' and 'having surrendered to the present moment' are two ways of saying the same. To be deeply conscious of reality is to have surrendered to the present moment, and vice versa.

What is reality? What is the present moment? Well, this takes consciousness -- or surrendering/transcendence of ego -- to grasp. It can't be communicated with words; only pointed to by them.

As a matter of fact, the mere phrasing 'surrendering to the present moment'; it only really makes sense to those who have done it. To a guy who lives in and by ego, totally, the notion is fantasy. "What is there to surrender?" he will ask.  

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What I care about is CONSCIOUSNESS, not surrender and not liberation and not freedom from suffering and not lack of ego and not some permanent condition. But CONSCIOUSNESS!

Consciousness = Surrender = Liberation = Freedom from suffering = Transcended ego

You are contradicting yourself here, Leo, because I know for a fact that you have a dream of being in a "state of God-consciousness" (5-MeO/DMT-like) 24/7. So in that sense you are searching for a specific permanent condition, although you may 'externally' have given up on it as of late. Of course, the search itself is probably the reason it ain't already the case; God's favorite game in town: hide'n'seek.

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It makes no difference to me how long it lasts or what its consequences are.

Bullshit  Of course, it makes a difference to your ego how long it lasts (the longer the better), and you like expanding your consciousness because it makes you feel powerful.

In the end, the only difference between a stage orange guy desiring power and money, and a stage turquiouse guy desiring consciousness, is that the latter is a higher level game. But both are games, both please the ego. It's just a matter of how transcended the ego is, how surrendered it is, how conscious it is. The more conscious a ego becomes, the more it values consciousness in itself.

Ego is always the case, cos God = Ego. You can't eradicate ego, because eradicating it would mean eradicating God. Like if you tried to eradicate all evil in the world, what would happen? More evil would come! Does a blind-born-man know what darkness is? No, cos he has never has experienced not-darkness, so naturally he has no clue what darkness is. In the same way, if you *could* eradicate ego, it would mean eradicating God, which of course isn't possible.

It's just a matter of how sophiscated a game you are playing. The most sophisticated game is the meta-game of not-playing the game  

Yes, I can be more conscious than I currently am. But what do we mean when we say 'I' - who or what is actually becoming more conscious? God of course.

Or even if we accept 'the separate self' , the 'I', as a real thing, then it's not its doing.

Either you are already completely free and and in-control, consciousness itself, OR, you are a puppet being moved around by consciousness.

Consciousness = God

[VeganAwake]

@Dodo

That's wonderful if 'you' believe/notice it's true...

Just recognize that noticing does not matter in any way at all.. it has absolutely no effect on existence.

You could believe it's a fart cloud created by aliens to keep us interested in something... and that belief still wouldn't matter to existence in any way at all...

Can you see the limitations of identifying with thought.

Whether something is true or not has no outcome and in that sense doesn't matter.

The trees do not grow taller the grass does not grow greener the birds do not fly higher. 

There's no special secret knowledge out there to be attained... that's the dream. ❤

 

 

[Dodo]

2 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

@Dodo

That's wonderful if 'you' believe/notice it's true...

Just recognize that noticing does not matter in any way at all.. it has absolutely no effect on existence.

You could believe it's a fart cloud created by aliens to keep us interested in something... and that belief still wouldn't matter to existence in any way at all...

Can you see the limitations of identifying with thought.

Whether something is true or not has no outcome and in that sense doesn't matter.

The trees do not grow taller the grass does not grow greener the birds do not fly higher. 

There's no special secret knowledge out there to be attained... that's the dream. ❤

 

 

There is a difference between knowing something and believing something. And I am not talking about noticing something, but knowing the reality of the knower. It's your most intimate knowledge. I Am, Pure Awareness, the absolute Consciousness that Eckhart Tolle is constantly pointing to

[Dodo]

@VeganAwake My advice is you shrink your Ego to a point so small that it becomes nothingness , then you will merge with reality now which is always pure awareness and knowing, everything. Only ego is blocking that shine and limits it. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Dodo

[Nahm]

On 9/9/2020 at 1:58 AM, Dodo said:

The Sun / Consciousness is immovable and unchanging, it's the Earth / Ego that moves and from the Earth / Ego point of view the Sun/Consciousness moves/expands, but that's just an illusion.  I think this analogy is good.  

Edited yesterday at 01:59 AM by Dodo

That’s a beauty right there. ?? 

Like the moon saying “meh, illumination is illumination, doesn’t matter”, while the sun says nothing. 

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

@VeganAwake My advice is you shrink your Ego to a point so small that it becomes nothingness , then you will merge with reality now which is always pure awareness and knowing, everything. Only ego is blocking that shine and limits it. 

I understand what you're saying ❤

I use ego and sense of 'self' interchangeably.

The ego is nothing more than a bundle of past knowledge labels thoughts perceptions beliefs and ideas identified with as the separate sense of 'ME' within the body. There's no need to attempt to shrink it or kill it... rather see it for what it is.

Yes the sun is always shining bright even if there appears to be stormy thought clouds in front of it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with believing you are Pure Awareness, the absolute Consciousness... it is whole complete and perfect and is what is being experienced there. ❤

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by VeganAwake

[Dodo]

12 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

I understand what you're saying ❤

I use ego and sense of 'self' interchangeably.

The ego is nothing more than a bundle of past knowledge labels thoughts perceptions beliefs and ideas identified with as the separate sense of 'ME' within the body. There's no need to attempt to shrink it or kill it... rather see it for what it is.

Yes the sun is always shining bright even if there appears to be stormy thought clouds in front of it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with believing you are Pure Awareness, the absolute Consciousness... it is whole complete and perfect and is what is being experienced there. ❤

 

 

 

Both believing and not believing that you are awareness happen within awareness. Remember always the 3 Bs: Being beyond belief.

Or don't remember them, cause in both cases you are That... Just in one case you are overlooking something - whether its overlooked or not, that's your business.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Dodo

[VeganAwake]

16 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Both believing and not believing that you are awareness happen within awareness. Remember always the 3 Bs: Being beyond belief.

Or don't remember them, cause in both cases you are That... Just in one case you are overlooking something - whether its overlooked or not, that's your business.

Exactly it doesn't matter in any way at all...❤

[Leo Gura]

On 9/8/2020 at 10:58 PM, Dodo said:

Consciousness IS absolute and Formless. It does not expand, its the Ego shrinks and makes an illusion of an expanding consciousness  - Just like the Sun does not rise but the Earth is moving around the Sun in such a way that it creates the illusion that the Sun is rising.

The Sun / Consciousness is immovable and unchanging, it's the Earth / Ego that moves and from the Earth / Ego point of view the Sun/Consciousness moves/expands, but that's just an illusion.  I think this analogy is good.  

No

Consciousness expands and contracts. You mistakenly give power of the contraction to ego vs consciousness. Consciousness has all the power, not the ego. Consciousness contracts to create ego, not the other way around. The power to awaken or to forget is that of Consciousness alone.

19 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

But isn't 'consciousness' and 'the present moment' synonymous for the same 'no-thing' ?

Yes, but only if you are conscious of it.

You can also have a present moment which is not fully conscious.

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I'd say that 'being deeply conscious of reality' and 'having surrendered to the present moment' are two ways of saying the same. To be deeply conscious of reality is to have surrendered to the present moment, and vice versa.

No, not necessarily. Surrender doesn't mean infinite consciousness.

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What is reality? What is the present moment? Well, this takes consciousness -- or surrendering/transcendence of ego -- to grasp. It can't be communicated with words; only pointed to by them.

Sure, but this is over-simplified.

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Consciousness = Surrender = Liberation = Freedom from suffering = Transcended ego

Far too reductionistic and one-dimensional. Consciousness is way more multi-dimensional than that.

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You are contradicting yourself here, Leo, because I know for a fact that you have a dream of being in a "state of God-consciousness" (5-MeO/DMT-like) 24/7. So in that sense you are searching for a specific permanent condition, although you may 'externally' have given up on it as of late. Of course, the search itself is probably the reason it ain't already the case; God's favorite game in town: hide'n'seek.

Bullshit  Of course, it makes a difference to your ego how long it lasts (the longer the better), and you like expanding your consciousness because it makes you feel powerful.

No, I am speaking from the POV of Truth. From the POV of Truth it makes no difference how long a thing lasts. A lightening bolt is as true is as the moon. Ironically it is the ego-mind which gives higher value to permanent things than to temporary ones.

Of course the ego would love to live in a constantly high state. But that is irrelevant from the POV of Truth.

Obviously expanding one's consciousness makes one feel more powerful, since Power = Infinite Consciousness. This is not a problem, it's a feature of God. I do not seek higher consciousness to gain more power. I seek higher consciousness for its own sake, and any power that comes from that pursuit is merely a happy side-effect.

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In the end, the only difference between a stage orange guy desiring power and money, and a stage turquiouse guy desiring consciousness, is that the latter is a higher level game. But both are games, both please the ego. It's just a matter of how transcended the ego is, how surrendered it is, how conscious it is. The more conscious a ego becomes, the more it values consciousness in itself.

Again, this is to grossly oversimplify things.

God is Consciousness and it desires to be conscious of itself. You can call it a "game" if you want, but it's the only game in town and this "game" is what God IS. Trying to dissuade God from playing this game is foolish since there's nothing better to do and it amounts to self-denial. God denying God in the name of God.

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Ego is always the case, cos God = Ego. You can't eradicate ego, because eradicating it would mean eradicating God. Like if you tried to eradicate all evil in the world, what would happen? More evil would come! Does a blind-born-man know what darkness is? No, cos he has never has experienced not-darkness, so naturally he has no clue what darkness is. In the same way, if you *could* eradicate ego, it would mean eradicating God, which of course isn't possible.

Wrong. Ego is not always the case. There are states of consciousness with absolutely zero ego. Whether it is realistic or practical to live from such a place is irrelevant from the POV of Truth and Consciousness.

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It's just a matter of how sophiscated a game you are playing. The most sophisticated game is the meta-game of not-playing the game  

But notice, although you speak of not playing the game, here you are still playing the game. If you were truly infinitely conscious you would not be here in human form. The very fact that you are in a human form is proof that you are not willing to surrender the playing of the game. You are merely pretending to not be playing the game when you are fully involved in it.

And the reason you're doing this is because you are not infinitely consciousness. You're stuck in lower consciousness while telling yourself you've "arrived", that you're "done". Well, you're kidding yourself.

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Yes, I can be more conscious than I currently am. But what do we mean when we say 'I' - who or what is actually becoming more conscious? God of course.

Yes, God of course. But here's the point: You don't understand what God is until you've actually been infinitely conscious.

For God to know itself it must explore itself by expanding its consciousness. God must explore the low and high.

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Either you are already completely free and and in-control, consciousness itself, OR, you are a puppet being moved around by consciousness.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with controlling or manipulating reality or being "free". All that is irrelevant to consciousness.

I am talking about pure consciousness for its own sake. How conscious is God of what God is?

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Consciousness = God

Yes, but you are not fully conscious of what consciousness is or can do.

A rock is consciousness/God, but it is not infinitely conscious of itself as that. Neither is a human.

You can be a rock if you want. A rock is surrendered and liberated. But it ain't conscious of much.

To me this work is not about becoming a rock. But it seems that's what you want to make this work into. Well, enjoy being a rock. But don't expect me to join you in that. I got slightly higher aims

[Johnny5]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Consciousness expands and contracts. You mistakenly give power of the contraction to ego vs consciousness. Consciousness has all the power, not the ego. Consciousness contracts to create ego, not the other way around. The power to awaken or to forget is that of Consciousness alone.

 

42 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Surrender doesn't mean infinite consciousness.

The way I see it, surrender goes a lot deeper than the "present moment" thingy (although it's all the same really). Surrender extends naturally to the release of contraction, which means release of ego and expansion of consciousness. Such that to surrender your life completely means to fully "become" infinite consciousness.

As you say here:

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you were truly infinitely conscious you would not be here in human form. The very fact that you are in a human form is proof that you are not willing to surrender the playing of the game.

 

Of course that's probably not how it is commonly understood. But surrender remains the single most relevant thing for waking up, even for someone who doesn't yet grok the full ramifications of it. And I think is equivalent to self-love (love releases resistance, surrender releases resistance, resistance being ego/contraction/fear). So they are equally fundamental since they are basically the same thing.  

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

which means release of ego and expansion of consciousness. Such that to surrender your life completely means to fully "become" infinite consciousness.

Again, this assumes too much. You assume a perfect correlation between surrender and consciousness, which just isn't the case. There is some correlation in general, but it's far from perfect. You can be in a state of zero self/ego, but still not be infinitely conscious.

A rock has no self/ego. It is fully surrendered. But it is not very conscious at tall.

You guys keep conflating all these different facets and dimensions of consciousness, and that's because you haven't deeply explored all the various states that consciousness can take on. Hence your view of consciousness is very one-dimensional. It's sort of like the difference between someone who's lived in one country his whole life vs someone who's traveled the world. If you ask the one-country guy about how the world is, he will give you a very narrow picture based on his little corner of the world which he has assumed is the same everywhere else. If you ask the word-traveler, he will regale you weird tails of alien and unbelievable cultures that will hardly make any sense because you had to be there to understand it.

Teachings like Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta make consciousness seem very one-dimensional. Because that's all you get through meditation and self-inquiry. You can't shift your consciousness significantly enough via those methods. Hence you end up confusing the limits of those methods with the limits of consciousness itself. Which is a great delusion.

[Johnny5]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Again, this assumes too much. You assume a perfect correlation between surrender and consciousness, which just isn't the case. There is some correlation in general, but it's far from perfect. You can be in a state of zero self/ego, but still not be infinitely conscious.

A rock has no self/ego. It is fully surrendered. But it is not very conscious at tall.

Not sure how you mean that then, because seems to me there is only consciousness and energy, where energy is just "modulated" consciousness. Which is what creates the appearance of distortions incuding all egoic contraction/fear/resistance. It's all the same energy, and the only remedy to that is to release it i.e. surrender. When the energetic distortions are released, what more could possibly remain?

As for the rock, insofar as we can say it may be conscious at all, it surely wouldn't be self-(reflectively) conscious. Absence of (re-)cognition doesn't necessarily mean absence of consciousness. And if it is conscious at all, it probably wouldn't have an energy system, so no energetic distortions and no states of consciousness, which means it would have to be infinitely conscious even without the ability to (re-)cognize it.

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

When the energetic distortions are released, what more could possibly remain?

What then remains is any number of different states of consciousness, from infinitely low to infinitely high and anything in between.

It's like you are confusing a house for its state of cleanliness. Just because you have a perfectly clean house does not tell you anything about the kind of house it is. It could a clean rickety shack or a clean marble palace.

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And if it is conscious at all, it probably wouldn't have an energy system, so no energetic distortions and no states of consciousness,

This is incorrect, since there is nothing but states of consciousness. To say that something is consciousness means to say that it is in some state of consciousness. This state could be low or high or any infinite shades in between.

There cannot be "no states of consciousness". Even if consciousness is formless or empty, that too is a state of consciousness. The null state. And by definition a rock is not a null state, otherwise you wouldn't call it a rock.

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which means it would have to be infinitely conscious even without the ability to (re-)cognize it.

No, this doesn't follow at all. It means a very contracted, limited state of consciousness.

It is possible for you to become a rock and experience what it feels like to exist as a rock. This will not be Infinite Consciousness. It will be a very narrow, finite consciousness. Although it may feel like it lasts forever, since a rock doesn't have a sense of time.

Smoke some salvia and you can know what it feels like to become a rock. But be careful what you wish for. Maybe being a rock isn't as wonderful as you imagine

[Johnny5]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Smoke some saliva and you can know what it feels like to become a rock. But be careful what you wish for.

Yah I believe you, and that's why I won't do it  ? 

Anyway, I'm not quite convinced that there is any difference between energy and states of consciousness. But I wouldn't know how that figures into being a rock  ?‍♂️ so I guess I'll have to revisit this if/when I'm out of my current state...