Reference to Leo Gura and Psychedelic States

[RedLine]

1 minute ago, Enlightenment said:

Losing the sense of being in the head does not make one's morality "higher".

I dont´understand this. 

 

You are a bad person because you are attach to your ego (evil=ego attachment), If you go beyond the ego, you actually have a higher morality since you are more compassionate and less selfish. Of course it does not mean you are perfect and you cannot hurt your wife but in general terms you are a better person. Dont´you agree?

 

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, RedLine said:

I don´t know anybody describing wierd permanent stages beyong classic non-dual stage phenomenology.

That's only because you've talked with so few people about these issues.

People with weird, non-classic nondual stages have no platform and no one listens to them, not even classically enlightened folk. So they are off quietly living in their own worlds while you are oblivious to their existence.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Enlightenment said:

but these things have very little to do with the sense of self and that's what I strictly mean.

I didn't say they did. I simply cited those as an example to open your mind to radical new possibilities outside your present experience of reality.

There are also many dimensions to self-less-ness.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Enlightenment said:

States that "stick" or temporary ones?

This is a phony distinction. Whether a state "sticks" or doesn't is completely irrelevant from the POV of truth/reality. This is a criteria that you -- the ego-mind -- is placing upon the situation. Who says that a thing must be permanent for it to be valid or true? The mere fact that it can exist, even for 5 seconds, is enough. Nothing sticks forever. Even your so-called Buddha-level enlightenment will eventually be lost as God will fall asleep at some point after it awakens. Otherwise there wouldn't be any asleep people in the first place.

And yes, some people do have "permanent" states which are very different than all the classical ones you know or could ever access via meditation. Your "permanent" state totally hinges on your neurology, genetics, and brain chemistry. If we tweak your brain to start pumping out new chemicals, you will be permanently living in a new reality. Well, as long as you're in that body.

In the not too distant future we will have a Neurolink-like device which will be installed in your brain which will consistently pump out whatever cocktail of neurotransmitters you want, and you will be able to dial in your baseline state of consciousness to whatever you want. Such a device will be the most important and revolutionary technology that mankind has ever invented.

[RedLine]

 

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

And yes, some people do have "permanent" states which are very different than all the classical ones you know or could ever access via meditation. Your "permanent" state totally hinges on your neurology, genetics, and brain chemistry. If we tweak your brain to start pumping out new chemicals, you will be permanently living in a new reality. Well, as long as you're in that body.

 

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

People with weird, non-classic nondual stages have no platform and no one listens to them, not even classically enlightened folk. So they are off quietly living in their own worlds while you are oblivious to their existence.

It would be great if one day you invited some of these unknown people to the forum to describe their exoteric permanent stage phenomenology. 

[VeganAwake]

Non-dual awakening is the recognition that there never was separate individuals in the bodies.

There cannot be any real separation if there was not actually any real separate individuals within the bodies to begin with. 

When the body observes and looks around it sees apparent separation... I.e. mountains, tree's, lakes, ocean's, buildings, airport's, cars, animals, humans.

For no reason whatsoever the boundless energy of everything can also constrict itself within the human body, and create an individualized illusory experience of The 'ME'... but not just any 'ME', the most important 'ME' that ever existed. 

Awakening is the recognition that the separate individual never existed.... it was just a misidentification with the body's experiences, feelings thoughts ideas perceptions Etc... hence nobody becomes enlightened.

When this illusion of 'self' is clearly seen through, it dissolves the entire story of The self-centered 'ME' character that was once experienced as top priority of existence.

 

 

[lmfao]

@Leo Gura Have you succeeded at changing your "permanent" state?

When it comes to this brain chemistry stuff, are you quite fatalistic with it or optimistic? So neurology and brain chemistry, can this be meaningfully altered permanently? 

I've never been conscious of this God or everything is imagination and love stuff. My high states of consciousness have involved no-self (realising very strongly that there's nobody here but me in the most extreme case, temporarily finding my own reflection almost a stranger) , very rarely love + creation but those states have been lost to me in recent times for whatever reason. 

Which is maybe why I'm so confused. Maybe you've seen whacky stuff where you see God literally imagining the law of physics, I would have no clue.

Now laws of physics, that's materialism, brain chemistry, psychedelics. I find it weird though that despite materialism being relative, it supposedly controls your ability to be awake and see through materialism. A seemingly logical mind fuck. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by lmfao

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, lmfao said:

A seemingly logical mind fuck. 

Yes

[Enlightenment]

8 hours ago, RedLine said:

You are a bad person because you are attach to your ego (evil=ego attachment), If you go beyond the ego, you actually have a higher morality since you are more compassionate and less selfish. Of course it does not mean you are perfect and you cannot hurt your wife but in general terms you are a better person. Dont´you agree?

But that's only a very small part of the ego. Ego goes much deeper than just a sense of being a constructed self in the head

Just slightly better. Your whole life it seems like your will, attachments, aversions are seated in this self like you're the doer of things located there, so it's reasonable to think if you would lose it you'll be a better person but the freaky thing about enlightenment is when you finally lose it, you realize 99% of your daily behaviors, responses, etc. are automatic programming not steered by any self, they are "just happening" and it always has been this way.

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During some interviews participants expressed that they no longer felt it was possible for them to be racist or sexist. I asked these participants to take Harvard University’s Project Implicit tests online. All of these participants were white males and each showed a degree of sexism and/or racism, including participants who were in the later no emotion and agency locations on the continuum. Project Implicit uses physiology to test these responses.

 

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Whether a state "sticks" or doesn't is completely irrelevant from the POV of truth/reality. This is a criteria that you -- the ego-mind -- is placing upon the situation.

I agree. A lot of people are not that interested whether it's true or not, they are into it to decrease suffering primarily.

 

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

In the not too distant future we will have a Neurolink-like device which will be installed in your brain which will consistently pump out whatever cocktail of neurotransmitters you want, and you will be able to dial in your baseline state of consciousness to whatever you want. Such a device will be the most important and revolutionary technology that mankind has ever invented.

I wonder if it's possible to overcome the problem of a tolerance buildup to these neurotransmitters. Also, it's not all about neurotransmitters since personality can be so powerful that it makes you literally blind

 

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

the problem of a tolerance buildup to these neurotransmitters.

The beauty of 5-MeO-DMT and DMT is that they have no tolerance.

[Johnny5]

10 hours ago, Enlightenment said:

Frank was always crazy btw

As are we all.

 

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Who says that a thing must be permanent for it to be valid or true?

LOL!

Nonduality 101 does....

(talking about "true", no idea what "valid" means)

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

LOL!

Nonduality 101 does....

And that's a common dogma of nonduality.

A lightning bolt is no less true than anything else, and it only lasts less than a second.

Fast things are no less true than long things -- since all things are eternal regardless of how long they last.

If you ever get hit by a lightning bolt, that will be the strongest dose of truth you ever get

[Javfly33]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 Consciousness is infinitely diverse, beyond anything the default human mind-state can imagine. And even beyond what most enlightened humans can imagine. Just because you'd had some awakenings does not mean you understand how deep and diverse consciousness can be. No mater how awake you think you are, I guarantee you are underestimating what consciousness is capable of.

Of course I'm not saying there is the state of consciousness of the ego and then the state of consciousness of no-ego and that's it.

I do categorize Enlightement relative to the goals of my ego, which is avoid pain and suffering.

However what I wanted to point out to @Enlightenment is that if Eckhart Tolle is not at a high enough state of consciousness where he is not able to step out of identification with the mind and body in a constant basis, that is not Enlightement on the MY STANDARDS of awakeness. Can you be more awake than that mere not-identification? Of course, it's just that's already a "good enough" standard from where I would start categorizing as a "high state". Other people might categorize "high state" as just being human and not an ant. And others might categorize a high state as being God Omniscient.

Also, I doubt my Mom is far less awake than Ekchart Tolle @Enlightenment . She is constantly in a state of acceptance, never in thoughts. It's been years since I have seen her complain or furious. And I had some non dual conversations with her, even though she's hardcore materialist, funny thing is she has pretty clear she is not his thoughts and their actions show that.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Javfly33

[Enlightenment]

2 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

if Eckhart Tolle is not at a high enough state of consciousness where he is not able to step out of identification with the mind and body in a constant basis, that is not Enlightement on the STANDARDS of awakeness.

Do you actually think there is some version of enlightenment where people don't experience pain? Even if that would be true, they would be very dysfunctional and die soon probably. There's a genetic disorder where people are unable to feel pain and they usually doesn't live long

[Johnny5]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And that's a common dogma of nonduality.

A lightning bolt is no less true than anything else, and it only lasts less than a second.

Fast things are no less true than long things -- since all things are eternal regardless of how long they last.

If you ever get hit by a lightning bolt, that will be the strongest dose of truth you ever get

https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/innlvg/the_cat_beats_the_dog_after_he_farted/

[Johnny5]

1 minute ago, Enlightenment said:

some version of enlightenment

There are two enlightenments?  ?  ?  ? 

(sorry, please don't mind me, I'm just in a silly mood)

[Javfly33]

3 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Do you actually think there is some version of enlightenment where people don't experience pain? Even if that would be true, they would be very dysfunctional and die soon probably. There's a genetic disorder where people are unable to feel pain and they usually doesn't live long

I did make a mistake. I don't mean pain but suffering.

You can feel pain but not suffer 

I've been consciouss enough to feel physical sensations that I recognized as "negative" (relative to my survival) and yet didn't experience suffering.. because there wasnt identification/no ego energy.

 

[Enlightenment]

6 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

You can feel pain but not suffer 

I know what you mean

6 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I've been consciouss enough to feel physical sensations that I recognized as "negative" (relative to my survival) and yet didn't experience suffering.. because there wasnt identification/no ego energy.

Let me guess you achieved this through some form of meditation and/or where on psychedelics? So many people confuse a state of a unified powerful mind with how it's all the time for an enlightened person even when he/she is not a good meditator. If Eckhart is an advanced meditator then yes it's possible that he can reduce the majority of suffering from physical pains and only feel them as sensations but he can't if he isn't. This ability to perceive pain clearly only as sensations is trainable and not much related to persistent state that we where talking about

[WaveInTheOcean]

On 5.9.2020 at 10:25 PM, Leo Gura said:

If you want to be a stickler and insist on pure, absolute, unmitigated nonduality, then you can become the Godhead itself, which is just formless infinite consciousness which increases in intensity forever without end. But at this point your human life will be gone, as will the entire material universe.

To differentiate between 'The Godhead itself' / 'formless infinite consciousness' on the one hand, and then  "something else" on the other, e.g. 'yourself running around in your house eating blueberry smoothie', is precisely dualism. 

You running around in your house eating blue berry smoothie is formless infinite consciousness.
 

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"Consciousness is an infinite field which is capable of being more or less conscious of itself, more or less transparent or opaque to itself. Similar to the light in empty space." 

This is a fine pointer, but still concept (like everything we can think/say with words).  We can't eat the menu. 
Enneagram type 5's primary ego-temptation: replacing direct experience with concepts.
 

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An ant is definitely not conscious that it is God.

Children are definitely not conscious that they are God.

99.9% of adults have no consciousness of what God is.

But you could become God-conscious. This takes some doing. It isn't your natural state. Your natural state is a state of humanness.

There are no rocks, no ants, no children, no adults. God-consciousness is what is. Every state is natural; every state is a state of God. There are no other states than the state of God.

Nahm hit the nail on the head here:

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Sizing up, comparing people, enlightenments, awakenings, teachers, experiences, etc. - this is how to stay asleep.
It is veiling oneself with the activity of thought about - and missing the actuality.
No thing gets, gives, causes, delivers, or equates to enlightenment. 

---

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The real question is, how conscious is person X and what exactly is X conscious of?

To insist on this slicing up of Reality/Oneness into parts keeps you stuck in duality. 

I understand; your job is basically to make fine distinctions when you present new material in your brilliant youtube videos. 

But every so-called 'person' is absolutely nothing other than yourself: nothingness, God, infinite formless consciousness. 
And what is there to be conscious of? God, Oneness, Nothingness. Infinite Love/Consciousness/Imagination you say, but how do you know that *ANY* so-called 'person' isn't COMPLETELY conscious of 'It' already but just plays on? Pretends? Like a great actor really immersed in his or her role?

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It is not a binary. To not acknowledge degrees of wokeness is amateur stuff. And to boil enlightenment down merely to presence does a disservice to how deep consciousness can go.

Consciousness goes deep cos it's infinite. But enlightenment isn't an accumulation or collection of far out (to humans) crazy trips into consciousness/mystical states/psychedelic trances. Enlightenment is 'merely' a complete surrender (complete let-go), beyond mind, beyond ego, beyond thinking, beyond judgements, to Reality as it is without concepts on top of it - without ideas or thoughts thoughts about it, Now.

Of course there can still be lots of thinking, there can still be lots story-making (such as the idea of 'degrees of wokeness'), but if you don't see that any thought, any idea, any concept, any story is just that: concept, fun play, story-making (absolutely speaking: nothing!), well, then you are still stuck in duality.

Enlightenment is looking at everything -- including all your so-called 'own' thoughts/ideas, as well as 'other's'  thoughts/ideas -- and smiling on the inside, knowing (*feeling*) deeply that it is all absolutely Divine Perfection unfolding, no matter "what it is". A simultaneous complete immersion into & complete detachment from experience.

If you go around still making judgements about reality that you deeply believe to be true, such as "I am not enlightened", "I am enlightened", "I am x or y" , "I am not x or y" , "x or y is not enlightened", "I still need x or y", etc., it is because you are caught in the hamsterwheel of duality; or should I say, you are caught because you are making those judgements. How to get out of this strange loop? Trying to stop making judgements is in itself a judgement of oneself: "I am making judgements, gosh I have to stop!"   Don't try. Take yourself 50% less serious, smile, love, let go, let be.

Edited September 7, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[raphaelbaumann]

On 5.9.2020 at 10:25 PM, Leo Gura said:

then you can become the Godhead itself, which is just formless infinite consciousness which increases in intensity forever without end. But at this point your human life will be gone, as will the entire material universe.

If the universe really ends then, shouldn't then the first person doing it be the last one aswell? I mean how otherwise? I'm actually really interested in understanding why you often make this point @Leo Gura

Edited September 7, 2020 by raphaelbaumann