Reference to Leo Gura and Psychedelic States

[Johnny5]

3 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

How much is 1% of infinity?

Not enough goddamnit!

[Enlightenment]

52 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

so Ekchart Tolle form doesn't construct an ego

BS

Have you ever had an ego death on 5-MeO?

[Javfly33]

1 minute ago, Enlightenment said:

BS

Have you ever had an ego death on 5-MeO?

No. I have had 5-meo but no ego death. Just infinite light/nothingness. Planning tomorrow actually to finally do 5-meo plugged and contemplate in silence.

Why do you say BS?

[Enlightenment]

Just now, Javfly33 said:

No. I have had 5-meo but no ego death

So you still don't know how radical "not constructing an ego" is

2 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Why do you say BS?

Eckhart is walking, talking, communicating, writing books. Wouldn't be able to do that without the ego

You guys seriously have a wrong perception of how it is to live with no-self like Eckhart. He still does experience negative emotions, unpleasant pains, aches, itches just like you. A more pleasant aspect of his experience includes very little self-referential thoughts which gives him much more "flow" unlike an average folk which is constantly bombarded by these thoughts

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

23 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

Not enough goddamnit!

Hahaha, yeah, apparently it isn't...

[Johnny5]

5 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Hahaha, yeah, apparently it isn't...

 

But then, that's how heroes are made afterall. Gotta admit, the hardcore psychonauts are pretty damn heroic.

I'd almost say the same of actual enlightenment, but I don't think it's heroism that gets one there. More like stupidity and desperation. 

[Javfly33]

18 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

So you still don't know how radical "not constructing an ego" is

Eckhart is walking, talking, communicating, writing books. Wouldn't be able to do that without the ego

You guys seriously have a wrong perception of how it is to live with no-self like Eckhart. He still does experience negative emotions, unpleasant pains, aches, itches just like you. A more pleasant aspect of his experience includes very little self-referential thoughts which gives him much more "flow" unlike an average folk which is constantly bombarded by these thoughts

Then Eckhart is not more "enlightened" than my Mom.

But there's no way what you are describing IS ENLIGHTEMENT.

Enlightement is like what happened to Ramana Maharshi that almost flies eat his body because he was absolutely zoned out Abiding in the Self.

Enlightement is no self. If you experience pain there's a misperception going in in there because there's a believe theres an indidivual receiving pain. Which it isn't. That's the whole point of illusion.

Yes you can write books withouth ego. As I said ego is completely unnecessary.

I actually don't think Echart is Enlightened. He sure has had awakenings but I would bet he is not in a very high state of consciousness most of the time. But maybe I'm wrong.

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

@Johnny5 But this still doesn't answer the question how one can measure grades of enlightenment. Does it really matter in an absolute sense if you've made it to the fifteenth, the one hundred thousandth or the gazillionth step of a ladder with infinite steps? On a ladder like that, you obviously won't ever reach the one percent mark -- let alone the end!

Btw, it also cracks me up how people on here just willy-nilly dismiss someone's claim to enlightenment because said person is an instagram model resp. 'gym rat'. Mmmm, how very open minded and enlightened of you fellas. LOL

Edited September 6, 2020 by Bazooka Jesus

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

But there's no way what you are describing IS ENLIGHTEMENT.

Enlightement is like what happened to Ramana Maharshi that almost flies eat his body because he was absolutely zoned out Abiding in the Self.

Enlightement is no self. If you experience pain there's a misperception going in in there because there's a believe theres an indidivual receiving pain. Which it isn't. That's the whole point of illusion.

This is the problem with turning enlightenment into some binary thing.

There is no such thing as "enlightenment" as a monolith. No two people have the same degree and kind of consciousness. Rather than thinking of enlightenment as a monolithic state, open your mind to the possibility that there are thousands of different states from which one can be awake. So the chances that any two people have the same degree and kind of awakening is tiny. Which is why all these nonduality debates keep happening. People assume enlightenment is a monolithic singular thing but it obviously is not if you bother to research it in some depth.

There are many degrees and even different kinds of ego-death.

You can have an ego-death so deep that you won't even be able to know your own first name. Yet most awake people can still recall their first name. That doesn't mean they aren't awake. It just means there are different kinds and degrees and states. To reduce and dismiss this vast diversity of awakening is very problematic and leads to much confusion and misunderstanding. It is a parallel problem to thinking that Christianity is the one true best religion because it happens to be the one you're familiar with. But there are many other religions which are equally valid, if not more so. But you have to be able to step outside your little self-constructed bubble in order to see it.

People who speak of awakening/enlightenment as a singular thing have clearly not experienced anywhere near the range of consciousness that is possible. The chief characteristic of consciousness is its enormous diversity. Consciousness is infinitely diverse, beyond anything the default human mind-state can imagine. And even beyond what most enlightened humans can imagine. Just because you'd had some awakenings does not mean you understand how deep and diverse consciousness can be. No mater how awake you think you are, I guarantee you are underestimating what consciousness is capable of.

[Johnny5]

14 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

@Johnny5 But this still doesn't answer the question how one can measure grades of enlightenment. Does it really matter in an absolute sense if you've made it to the fifteenth, the one hundred thousandth or the gazillionth step of a ladder with infinite steps? On a ladder like that, you obviously won't ever reach the one percent mark -- let alone the end!

Yep like I said, in my book enlightenment is not on any such scale. That is to say, no such scale has any bearing on truth. So if someone says that, then they must be talking about something else (i.e. something false).

You could say that one inches incrementally toward the abyss. But until you fall off, you ain't got shit. And you can only fall off once.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Johnny5

[Enlightenment]

4 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Then Eckhart is not more "enlightened" than my Mom.

Your Mom is almost certainly not enlightened

6 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Enlightement is like what happened to Ramana Maharshi that almost flies eat his body because he was absolutely zoned out Abiding in the Self.

Ramana to my knowledge was very into Samatha/Vipassana meditation and temporary states where things like burning yourself alive are possible (besides his enlightenment) don't confuse the two

9 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Enlightement is no self. If you experience pain there's a misperception going in in there because there's a believe theres an indidivual receiving pain. Which it isn't. That's the whole point of illusion.

no self absolutely doesn't mean you don't have pain. Rewind this podcast https://deconstructingyourself.com/dy-003-masters-oblivion-guest-kenneth-folk.html  to 34:40 and listen 

 

[Enlightenment]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No two people have the same degree and kind of consciousness.

It's very likely that the vast majority of enlightened people fall into a few clusters of kind of consciousness so in that sense many of them have the same kind of it. What about the average people with a normal sense of self? They all have the same kind of consciousness of very similar (I'm not talking about Spiral Dynamics kind of consciousness development here)

 

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Which is why all these nonduality debates keep happening

A lot of it I think is language and how people use it. One guy with the same kind of consciousness may describe it in a way which sounds different than the other guy with the same kind of consciousness and non-awakened people get confused

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

It's very likely that the vast majority of enlightened people fall into a few clusters of kind of consciousness so in that sense many of them have the same kind of it.

Open your mind to the possibility that this isn't true and that each state is unique.

Quote

What about the average people with a normal sense of self? They all have the same kind of consciousness of very similar

No, there is a vast diversity among normies as well.

Some people can see ghosts and angels and demons and aliens.

Some humans can smell numbers, and all sorts of weird shit like that.

Quote

A lot of it I think is language and how people use it. One guy with the same kind of consciousness may describe it in a way which sounds different than the other guy with the same kind of consciousness and non-awakened people get confused

The relativity of language is certainly a big factor. But that's not what I'm pointing to here. I'm saying there is a vast diversity of conscious states underneath all the language difficulties, such that even if you hammer out all the language problems, you will still be left with a massive 3D terrain of diverse conscious states. And there no escape states. No matter how awake you are, you're still beholden to a state.

Consciousness is so diverse than you cannot map it with a 1D or 2D model. Which is why the RASA 1000 LOC model is dumb. It's grossly reductionistic. You can't map consciousness on a 1D line or even a 2D plane.

[RedLine]

@Enlightenment  Your posts in this thread are very interesting.  I would like to ask you a question.

 

Would you say there is more stages of consciusness beyond what you called PNSE (I guess it is the same Ken Wilber call non-dual stage)?  I accept you can go deeply and depply in consciusness as Leo stated but I mean permanent stages (not as a temporary state trough pshcyodelics or momentary intuition) . 

 

Thank you.

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by RedLine

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, RedLine said:

Would you say there is more stages of consciusness beyond what you called PNSE

Imagine that there aren't just more, there are literally infinitely more.

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

Ego is not personality.

Ego is "the misperception".

The whole point is everything to remain the same (even have a personality that prefers coffee over tea) but you as an ego is dead 

 

Yeah yeah I mean I know Ego is identification with form, but Bruce Lee's whole thing is that you can't just be the formless selfless self, but merge the Ego and No-self and let em play together ! Hehe

[RedLine]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Imagine that there aren't just more, there are literally infinitely more.

Everything is always new so yes, everything is different from everything. But we use languaje as a tool to map reality (remember the map-territory methapor). And from outside there seem to be clear stages that people go through. I don´t know anybody describing wierd permanent stages beyong classic non-dual stage phenomenology.

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by RedLine

[Johnny5]

49 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Btw, it also cracks me up how people on here just willy-nilly dismiss someone's claim to enlightenment because said person is an instagram model resp. 'gym rat'. Mmmm, how very open minded and enlightened of you fellas. LOL

Because it's usually not that difficult to see the sense of self calling attention to itself or whether someone believes their own act.

If you're striking a pose because of how it reflects on you in the eyes of others, then that speaks volumes. It's kinda funny. That's also why "I am enlightened AMA" threads are instantly suspicious. Not because there's a law against it, but because you can sense the vibe.

[Enlightenment]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, there is a vast diversity among normies as well.

Some people can see ghosts and angels and demons and aliens.

Some humans can smell numbers, and all sorts of weird shit like that.

I'm not denying things like seeing ghosts, demons, etc. by some people but these things have very little to do with the sense of self and that's what I strictly mean. There was even some study that showed something like 85% of people have a felt sense of self inside their heads. I while ago I even did a poll on a different forum asking people where they feel they are in their body and the results were similar.

Here in this old video

 

Your state of consciousness sounds exactly like Location 4(loss of sense of free will and self) with an additional afterglow of whatever you did then.

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

such that even if you hammer out all the language problems, you will still be left with a massive 3D terrain of diverse conscious states. And there no escape states. No matter how awake you are, you're still beholden to a state.

States that "stick" or temporary ones? I agree that there are infinite amounts of temporary states possible and in a sense, PNSE is still a state because contrary to what people may believe it's possible to go back. It's an extremely persistent state however

11 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Would you say there is more stages of consciusness beyond what you called PNSE (I guess it is the same Ken Wilber call non-dual stage)?  I accept you can go deeply and depply in consciusness as Leo stated but I mean permanent stages (not as a temporary state trough pshcyodelics or momentary intuition) . 

I would say most likely not. It's possible to deepen location 4 experience a bit tho

1) because many experienced people who I listened to didn't find such people anywhere in Asia, the West, or anywhere

2) Going through these stages of losing the sense of self shoved me that it really was a deeper and deeper deconstruction of this specific kind of identification with inside the skull self and I went through a few stages of it until just lost it completely so it makes sense that "that's it"

There are however more stages that are possible to hold with some daily meditation practice and intentions during a day: joyful unified state of Samatha, Jhanas, "The witness" etc. I firmly believe you can get so good at loving-kindness meditation that feeling of love stick with you during a day for the most part but those are all trainable skills

[Enlightenment]

6 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

Because it's usually not that difficult to see the sense of self calling attention to itself or whether someone believes their own act.

If you're striking a pose because of how it reflects on you in the eyes of others, then that speaks volumes.

Losing the sense of being in the head does not make one's morality "higher". Quick examples Culadasa recently admitted to cheating on his wife with prostitutes, Transcendental Meditation is very powerful in making people shift to enlightenment and yet TM is a cult with a cult leader Maharshi

Frank was always crazy btw