Non-Duality Conference (Sep 19th & 20th)

[arlin]

1 minute ago, Johnny5 said:

Because the only satisfaction you'll find in this, is when you stop trying to adopt other people's views and finally return back to yourself. Self-realization is never "out there"

Oh , i see. Well thank you for that.

 

1 minute ago, Johnny5 said:

Way too much still... 

Like what? Non duality? if you want to share im ok with that.

If you don't, im ok.

[traveler]

@arlin Embrace not knowing.

[arlin]

@traveler In fact i don't care about embracing anything anymore.

Im just tired of word games and concepts. I have had depersonalization and used to obsess over those things which made my sense of reality more thickle and slippery. Feeling i have no free will sucks and ruins your whole life.

You talked to me like jim newman or some non dualist aggressive teacher so i know what you mean by embrace not knowing. It is impossible to find the answer yet we are trapped in a constant stream of never ending seeking. Even leo can't stop seeking because he is still in the dream believing he is achieving something serious. what a fuck...

Well i guess im alive so only choice is to start living now. 

[Johnny5]

Just now, arlin said:

Like what? Non duality? if you want to share im ok with that.

If you don't, im ok.

It's just not easy to answer, partly because beliefs are by definition blind spots.

But if there are any specific things you want to talk about, no problem.

[arlin]

3 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

But if there are any specific things you want to talk about, no problem.

Allright. Do you believe we have free will? And if we don't, do you believe everything is predetermined or is just spontaneously appearing ?

[traveler]

2 minutes ago, arlin said:

@traveler In fact i don't care about embracing anything anymore.

Im just tired of word games and concepts. I have had depersonalization and used to obsess over those things which made my sense of reality more thickle and slippery. Feeling i have no free will sucks and ruins your whole life.

You talked to me like jim newman or some non dualist aggressive teacher so i know what you mean by embrace not knowing. It is impossible to find the answer yet we are trapped in a constant stream of never ending seeking. Even leo can't stop seeking because he is still in the dream believing he is achieving something serious. what a fuck...

Well i guess im alive so only choice is to start living now. 

@arlin

I know you are tired of it, I've been there. I have to tell a story to get across to you so here it goes. I did not achieve anything, I searched and searched and searched I listened to thousands of non dual talks but got absolutely nowhere. The frustration and seeking fatigue can suddenly lead to a total surrender to the hopelessness of seeking. Then there is just what is without any attempt to grasp it in any way, a full stop in trying to get somewhere else. What is left is not a state of absolute knowing and omniscience, what is left is what already is without the seeking energy of trying to change anything. What is longed for is not a state, that is what the seeker longs for because it is in it's own dissatisfying dream of this not being it, what is left is what is truly longed for: this without need of being anything other than what it is. I am not an authority, I did not achieve anything, there is truly no one here, all there is, is this absolutely meaningless but astonishing ordinariness and wonder. The wonder can not be known, it is already, but the seeker will never get it because it believes it knows what this is already and that it merely is a barrier that needs to be overcome.

[arlin]

2 minutes ago, traveler said:

The frustration and seeking fatigue can suddenly lead to a total surrender to the hopelessness of seeking.

I can see how you could reach such a conclusion because in fact im very close to that conclusion myself so it seems like you understand me.

3 minutes ago, traveler said:

Then there is just what is without any attempt to grasp it in any way, a full stop in trying to get somewhere else.

I get that, or i might get that trying to get somewhere else it's useless but i still want to experience things in life. I mean, i haven't actualized my life purpose, i want to be creative, to form meaningfull connections with others. I think most non dual teachers have already done it and then they can rest in peace and just say that trying to get somewhere else does not help the seeker. But this does not benefit me in any way because im just 21 years old and imagine how can it feel like when you have no free will yet, those desires arise within you and you feel like you can't acomplish anything in life because there is no you. 

 

8 minutes ago, traveler said:

What is longed for is not a state, that is what the seeker longs for because it is in it's own dissatisfying dream of this not being it, what is left is what is truly longed for: this without need of being anything other than what it is.

"what is left is what is truly longed for". Well i regret discovering those things now, because i would just have live my amazing life and then died and that's it, what remains after is everything, what is longed for.

Rather then living at 21 and seeing there is no free will which stops your life right there.

11 minutes ago, traveler said:

all there is, is this absolutely meaningless but astonishing ordinariness and wonder. The wonder can not be known, it is already, but the seeker will never get it because it believes it knows what this is already and that it merely is a barrier that needs to be overcome.

But we can't do anything about it. As i said, im alive so i might as well just live now. 

Does seeking have to be negative? People have lived and have achieved happier lives. It's not that seeking is completely useless. Of course one can never be whole and truly complete in this life (it is but it's not recognized bla bla), but certaily people have suffered and recovered and got happier lives.

 

[Johnny5]

10 minutes ago, arlin said:

Allright. Do you believe we have free will? And if we don't, do you believe everything is predetermined or is just spontaneously appearing ?

To be honest I'm not sure what that phrase even means. Either way, as individuals, there's just no possibility. Although it can be a slippery slope if someone uses that as an excuse. If it's true now, it was always true, and yet it never stopped anyone before. But as an insight it can be used to correct certain things like guilt, shame, blame, etc. and of course the urge to control against all evidence to the contrary.

As regards our true nature, I'm not sure that the question (or answer) makes sense. And I think that's really the only answer. It just stops making sense to try and conceptualize it. Firstly because you can't make it make sense that way, and secondly because it's really just another way to try and stay in control. At some point you're not left with anything but to shift from thinking to observing, and from doing to being. Alas, you can't "think" that or "do" that, so it can be confusing times.

That's where surrender comes in. Which ego hates, no doubt about it. But often times the only way to surrender is to exhaust the urge to fight it. That's why it's a good sign that you're getting tired of it. Indeed, it is frustratingly tiring.

[arlin]

4 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

It just stops making sense to try and conceptualize it. Firstly because you can't make it make sense that way, and secondly because it's really just another way to try and stay in control.

I think you are right.

 

4 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

At some point you're not left with anything but to shift from thinking to observing, and from doing to being. Alas, you can't "think" that or "do" that, so it can be confusing times.

Agree.

6 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

That's where surrender comes in. Which ego hates, no doubt about it. But often times the only way to surrender is to exhaust the urge to fight it. That's why it's a good sign that you're getting tired of it. Indeed, it is frustratingly tiring.

Im getting there.

I need to fully grieve the loss of myself first.

[traveler]

4 minutes ago, arlin said:

I get that, or i might get that trying to get somewhere else it's useless but i still want to experience things in life. I mean, i haven't actualized my life purpose, i want to be creative, to form meaningfull connections with others. I think most non dual teachers have already done it and then they can rest in peace and just say that trying to get somewhere else does not help the seeker. But this does not benefit me in any way because im just 21 years old and imagine how can it feel like when you have no free will yet, those desires arise within you and you feel like you can't acomplish anything in life because there is no you. 

First of all what I am pointing to has no correlation with any beliefs you have about it. Don't take anything I say to be the truth or helpful in any way, I am pointing to the unknowable which can not be known. No free will is the case already, if you have free will why don't you just drop all of this non duality nonsense, forget about it and go live your life to the fullest without fear. See, you can't, because free will is just an illusion. This does not mean passivity, it doesn't lock you into a particular experience where you now have to be a certain way and give everything else up. This is what the non dual bullshitters on here and teachers are talking about, but there are absolutely no rules. This is not about anything, it is not about being good, it is not about being peaceful, it is not about being better than the average Joe that has no idea what the fuck non duality is, it is freeeeedom. I feel like the main motivation for many is how they will be special and better than those "ignorant normal folks", spirituality is merely about being better for most. This gives that need nothing, and it leaves you with nothing.

 

19 minutes ago, arlin said:

But we can't do anything about it. As i said, im alive so i might as well just live now. 

Does seeking have to be negative? People have lived and have achieved happier lives. It's not that seeking is completely useless. Of course one can never be whole and truly complete in this life (it is but it's not recognized bla bla), but certaily people have suffered and recovered and got happier lives.

 

Seeking is not negative, it is just what it is, everything is just what it is. Seeking is seeking, cup is cup, bla bla bla.

[arlin]

23 minutes ago, traveler said:

This does not mean passivity, it doesn't lock you into a particular experience where you now have to be a certain way and give everything else up. This is what the non dual bullshitters on here and teachers are talking about, but there are absolutely no rules.

So i forget about all of this and go live my life. But this will constantly be in the back of my mind.

24 minutes ago, traveler said:

it is freeeeedom

You are missing your point when you say it's about freedom. You see? When you say it's about something you miss the point. You have took non duality and applied it to your ego and decided it's about something you can attein like freedom. 

But most likely you are aware of that, as yous aid, you spend much much time obsessing over those things.

25 minutes ago, traveler said:

I feel like the main motivation for many is how they will be special and better than those "ignorant normal folks", spirituality is merely about being better for most.

Yes, this is what it was also for me in the beginning. And now here i am realizing what a fuck i have done. Im in worst shape than i actually have ever been.

26 minutes ago, traveler said:

Seeking is not negative, it is just what it is, everything is just what it is. Seeking is seeking, cup is cup, bla bla bla.

What i meant is: Do you believe you can actually get a happier life or is it just an illusion?

[traveler]

@arlin I'm done with you bro, good luck.

[arlin]

@traveler What? If im misunderstanding something, please tell me...

[traveler]

Just now, arlin said:

@traveler What? If im misunderstanding something, please tell me...

That was maybe a little harsh, I've said all I can say, there is not much left to discuss. I do wish you the best. Can't really give you any advice other than take a break from trying to understand.

 

[arlin]

1 minute ago, traveler said:

That was maybe a little harsh, I've said all I can say, there is not much left to discuss. I do wish you the best. Can't really give you any advice other than take a break from trying to understand.

Yes that was harsh. And made me feel sad. 

But thank you and yes, i will take A LONG break from trying to understand and all those things.

[Nahm]

@arlin

Consider the difference between a belief and the truth. 

[mandyjw]

@arlin When I was 21 I didn't give this stuff more than a vague consideration and if I considered too long it would scare and depress me. I was completely immersed in building my life as I knew it. Ultimately there's no conflict whatsoever between going for what you truly want in life and letting go. You can learn by doing and grasping or you can try to learn to let go. 

The first time I saw Eckhart Tolle on a screen I was so angry I had an outburst. Later immersed myself in his teachings. Didn't like Jim Newman either, now he is one of my favorites. The message evolves. Teacher and student are one. There's nothing wrong with going with what you feel is right for yourself. You're not missing out an anything, after all. 

Use suffering as an indication, when you go for everything you want in life and start to suffer rest in the sheer meaningless ultimate freedom of it. That's exactly how when you fall on your ass in life, you're able to bounce back without a second thought. This work is not about holding you back it's about realizing that there's no resistance on you that's not self-imposed, whatsoever. 

[arlin]

31 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Consider the difference between a belief and the truth.

Truth is what is objectively real and true. A belief is something that you hold, it's your perspective on things... 

 

20 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Didn't like Jim Newman either, now he is one of my favorites.

I hate him, he just says the same things over and over again and i think he could have brainwashed me that's why i hate him. Jim newman says that life is meaningless but i can tolerate that, what i can't tolerate is the fact that he says with such conviction that there is no self and no will. Now everytime i make a decision i can see that comes out of nowhere and i have no choice but to make it.

 

21 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

There's nothing wrong with going with what you feel is right for yourself. You're not missing out an anything, after all. 

Yes but consider that, if i know i might not even exist, what enjoyment would i get out of tje journey? what "personal sadisfaction" if i had no free will? you see, it's a problem.

23 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Use suffering as an indication, when you go for everything you want in life and start to suffer rest in the sheer meaningless ultimate freedom of it. That's exactly how when you fall on your ass in life, you're able to bounce back without a second thought. This work is not about holding you back it's about realizing that there's no resistance on you that's not self-imposed, whatsoever. 

self-imposed resistances... curious. If there is no self then who is imposing those limitations?

 

anyway, you see how considering those "truths" hurts your progress in life, at least for me... i don't want to think about it anymore, and i hope i forget all that bullshit even if it will be hard.

I want to live in a normal world.

[Nahm]

11 minutes ago, arlin said:

Truth is what is objectively real and true. A belief is something that you hold, it's your perspective on things... 

What do you mean by objective?

[arlin]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

What do you mean by objective?

Objective i mean that it is the reality of the universe out there in which i live in.