Fear is an ilusion

[Fran11]

34 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Knowledge is irrelevant here. It is derived from sensation, not the other way around. Sensation is prior to all thoughts.

Yes. The animal kingdom clearly shows that conciousness designed certain objects of perception to be inherently painful or pleasent prior to the arising of these labels. 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Fran11

[Fran11]

54 minutes ago, karkaore said:

@Fran11

You seem to stand by your pre-assumed knowing of the matter. Doesn't look like you want to find what's true about it though.

I try to find the point but all I read are assumptions about me.

Will I recieve the actual argument by email? 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Fran11

[RedLine]

3 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

I try to find the point but all I read are assumptions about me.

Will I recieve the actual argument by email? 

Maybe it become too theorical so let me put it in this way?

Can you accept there is fear of pain and pain, so fear of pain can be removed? Can you separate sensation and interpretation of pain?

If fear of pain is removed what is pain now? Is it different of pleasure? How can you know that it is different without an interpretation?

That's the kind of things that somebody should research in their consciusness.

[Fran11]

 

31 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Can you accept there is fear of pain and pain, so fear of pain can be removed? Can you separate sensation and interpretation of pain?

Yes. 

31 minutes ago, RedLine said:

If fear of pain is removed what is pain now? 

A sensation, like you said above.

31 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Is it different of pleasure?

In the absolute sense they are always the same, wether you label them or not.

But in the relative sense they are not the same, also wether you label them or not. Colors won't suddenly look all the same to you just because you stop labeling them.

Conciousness creates reality by imagining distinctions, these are not to be confused with our human mental distinctions. As long as you are experiencing the senses, relative distinctions in conciousness will invariably be there. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Fran11

[RedLine]

2 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

 

Yes. 

A sensation, like you said above.

In the absolute sense they are always the same, wether you label them or not.

But in the relative sense they are not the same, also wether you label them or not. Colors won't suddenly look all the same to you just because you stop labeling them.

Conciousness creates reality by imagining distinctions, these are not to be confused with mental distinctions. As long as you are experiencing the senses, relative distinctions in conciousness will invariably be there. 

so what is "the absolute sense"? what is the Absolute? An abstraction to points to what?

[Fran11]

2 minutes ago, RedLine said:

so what is "the absolute sense"? what is the Absolute? An abstraction to points to what?

God of course. Pain and pleasure are both God 

[RedLine]

3 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

God of course. Pain and pleasure are both God 

How do you know God? How do you know everything is the same? How do you know everything is One? According to you everything is relative and distinct always.

Edited September 3, 2020 by RedLine

[Fran11]

 

4 minutes ago, RedLine said:

How do you know God? How do you know everything is the same? How do you know everything is One? According to you everything is relative and multiple always.

Awake and see. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Fran11

[RedLine]

4 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

 

Awake and see. 

haha how can i awake if you are stating there are always distinctions and God is by definition the absence of distinctions?

Maybe because you are wrong and there are not distinctions if you go beyond the language, so pain just exist as a linguistic concept?

[universe]

Pursuing fear might work but if you do it in a way that creates more fear it can lead to... sidetracking.

In the end it might be the same thing though I prefer pursuing acceptance.

 

 

[Fran11]

8 minutes ago, RedLine said:

haha how can i awake if you are stating there are always distinctions and God is by definition the absence of distinctions?

I didn't say that. I said as long as there are senses there will be imaginary distinctions in conciousness. You can realise that they are still an aspect of the one conciousness.

Consider that if an enlightened person's conciousness didn't differentiate colours, he wouldn't be able to see. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Fran11

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, RedLine said:

Can you accept there is fear of pain and pain, so fear of pain can be removed? Can you separate sensation and interpretation of pain?

The pain and the fear to the pain are impressed in our genetic memory since million of years of evolution, and are the most powerful tool for the survival of the animals that we are. Go beyond the pain and the fear is possible, remember that monk who burned himself in front of the American Embassy in Vietnam without change the loto position. It's possible the transcendence, but I think only people absolutely compromise with that could do, but an human can go beyond of the animal

[RedLine]

17 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

I didn't say that. I said as long as there are senses there will be imaginary distinctions in conciousness. You can realise that they are still an aspect of the one conciousness.

Consider that if an enlightened person's conciousness didn't differentiate colours, he wouldn't be able to see. 

17 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

I didn't say that. I said as long as there are senses there will be imaginary distinctions in conciousness. You can realise that they are still an aspect of the one conciousness.

Consider that if an enlightened person's conciousness didn't differentiate colours, he wouldn't be able to see. 

What you don't understand is if there is one consciusness then there are not worst or better things, everything is equally ok; so pain is "neutral", the same that pleasure.

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by RedLine

[Mohammad]

@RedLine  I Agree. Even the neural process that underlie sensation of pain can easily shut down all other neural transmissions and make brain concentrate only on the pain. Body does everything to avoid pain. Both physical and psychological.

And as you said, of course complete enlightenment doesn't sit well with survival! Pain is necessary for survival. And it's ok. We need it. It's not like that if we want to become more conscious, we should get rid of pain. Pain is there. But fear of pain is illusory. When pain comes, let it take the wheel. But when it's not there, it's not there!

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, RedLine said:

What you don't understand is if there is one consciusness the there are not worst or better things, everything is equally ok; so pain is "neutral", the same that pleasure.

 

Oh thanks I clearly didn't understand that. Thanks for dispelling my ignorance Lord Jesus. 

[Johnny5]

1 hour ago, RedLine said:

What you don't understand is if there is one consciusness then there are not worst or better things, everything is equally ok; so pain is "neutral", the same that pleasure.

It's already neutral to consciousness. It may or may not be neutral to the organism, either way doesn't prove anything.

[Gesundheit]

3 hours ago, RedLine said:

If fear of pain is removed what is pain now?

A sensation.

3 hours ago, RedLine said:

Is it different of pleasure?

Absolutely.

3 hours ago, RedLine said:

How can you know that it is different without an interpretation?

How can you know that fire burns you without an interpretation?

[Fran11]

2 hours ago, RedLine said:

Maybe because you are wrong and there are not distinctions if you go beyond the language, so pain just exist as a linguistic concept?

"Pain" is a linguist concept of course, but it points to a relative distinction in conciousness.

Again, animals don't have a language and still they experience what we call pain.

 

[Gesundheit]

10 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

"Pain" is a linguist concept of course, but it points to a relative distinction in conciousness.

That's why I say it's an absolute distinction 

[Fran11]

10 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

That's why I say it's an absolute distinction 

A bit off topic but yes, appearences can be said to be absolute because they are an aspect of the absolute. Or relative because they are changeful in our experience. None of this terms does justice to reality, so whatever.

In the other topic I was refering to the relativity of linguistic truths specifically, different subject.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Fran11