Make Your 2020 General Election Predictions Here!

[DocWatts]

13 minutes ago, Anderz said:

@DocWatts But in case it turns out that there was nothing more than the usual voting fraud by individual citizens, even then it would be good for Biden since it will 1) prove (as far as the legal procedures go) that Biden won fair and square, and 2) that Trump's claims were indeed baseless. Even most Republicans will recognize that.

Maybe we just have a difference of perspective here, but I kind of liken people who believe in the baseless electoral fraud narrative to those who deny the reality of Climate Change.

If by this point someone isn't convinced by the decades of solid evidence for human caused Climate Change, they likely never will be, and almost certainly believe what they do for issues that having nothing to do with a lack of evidence.

Similarly, credible studies looking at Voter Fraud are easily available, and basically all of them say the same thing: that widespread Voter Fraud in the USA is basically non-existent. Their believing in the Voter Fraud narrative does so for psychological and tribalistic reasons, not because there's any credible ambiguity in the evidence.

In either case, spending a ton of effort to mollify either of these groups is a wasted effort in my view, and we'd be better off Unifying and working with the %60 or %70 of the country who's amenable to making progress in this country on a host of very serious issues. Trying to convince people who are a lost cause at this point is an Opportunity Cost that's just not worth it when you consider the time sensitive nature of many of the issues we're dealing with.

Edited November 17, 2020 by DocWatts

[Anderz]

@Forestluv Okay, yes that should be enough too, that because of lack of (or insufficient) evidence the legal cases have been dismissed. Biden can point to that. My scenario was in case some of the cases made it to court. 

[Anderz]

@DocWatts My idea is that it's 100% of the population that has to be looked at. Granted, my Yellow stage Spiral Dynamics thinking is shallow and lacking in many areas including in politics. So my view may be unrealistic. The real situation is probably extremely complicated.

[DocWatts]

8 minutes ago, Anderz said:

@DocWatts My idea is that it's 100% of the population that has to be looked at. Granted, my Yellow stage Spiral Dynamics thinking is shallow and lacking in many areas including in politics. So my view may be unrealistic. The real situation is probably extremely complicated.

I %100 agree that Trump Voters need to be brought back in to the fold of American Democracy, but I don't see pandering to Authoritarian viewpoints as an effective way to do that.

The only way I see that happening is to have a relatively healthy Conservative political party that represents their views, without giving them the ability to impose thier will on the rest of the country.

Fixing our Democratic Institutions will make it so that the Republican Party has to moderate thier viewpoints and appeal to enough people to win elections. As things stand right now, our system is highly vulnerable to a minority imposing thier will on the rest of country (look to the Electoral College, or 7 out of 9 Supreme Court justices being Conservative).

People of integrity in the Republican Party such as the late John McCain need to be encouraged and supported, as the fascist direction the Republican Party has taken is not sustainable in a pluralistic Democracy.

Either the Republican Party will have to change to fit Democracy, or Democracy will be eroded to fit an Authoritarian Republican Party.

Edited November 17, 2020 by DocWatts

[Forestluv]

38 minutes ago, Anderz said:

@Forestluv My scenario was in case some of the cases made it to court. 

That would mean the cases have merit. If there are legitimate claims of widespread fraud, then I would support legal proceedings and investigations. Yet there hasn't been any legitimate claims. All of Trump's / GOP claims have either been dismissed or ruled against Trump / GOP. 

I also support improved election security and integrity - that is a key component of democracy. Yet keep in mind, the Senate Republicans have blocked every election security proposal. 

[abrakamowse]

What happens if the states can't certify the results on time?

[Consept]

50 minutes ago, Anderz said:

@DocWatts My idea is that it's 100% of the population that has to be looked at. Granted, my Yellow stage Spiral Dynamics thinking is shallow and lacking in many areas including in politics. So my view may be unrealistic. The real situation is probably extremely complicated.

Where would you put trump on the spiral?

[Anderz]

@Consept I'm on the fence regarding Trump at the moment. If it turns out that all Trump's claims of voting fraud are false or at least vastly exaggerated then I will support Biden. On the other hand, if, against basically all odds, Trump pulls off this incredible stunt I will put him at Spiral Dynamics stage Turquoise. An outrageous claim, I know, but anyway.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Anderz

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, Anderz said:

@Consept I'm on the fence regarding Trump at the moment. If it turns out that all Trump's claims of voting fraud are false or at least vastly exaggerated then I will support Biden. One the other hand, if, against basically all odds, Trump pulls off this incredible stunt I will put him at Spiral Dynamics stage Turquoise. An outrageous claim, I know, but anyway.

I think you or someone else mentioned he was at turquoise before, i dont really see why his level will go up if hes right. Mccain didnt make false claims or even bush wouldnt that put them further up than trump? I think your confusion with the election or with as you say being a yellow thinker is that im not sure you fundamentally understand spiral dynamics, im open though if you can explain your reasoning of why you put him at turquoise 

[DocWatts]

@AnderzTrump is pretty clearly a stage Red con-artist and sociopath, though he tries to portray himself as a stage Orange business person (similar to how mob bosses wear a front of being a legitimate business person).

Compare Trump to someone like Jeff Bazos if you want to see the difference between Red masquerading as Orange, and someone who's actually a successful stage Orange businessman. Every business venture Trump has tried has failed, as he is incapable of the sort of long term thinking necessary to run a successful business. Hell, even his attempts to overturn the Election Results have been impulsive, ham-fisted, and incompetent.

Credit to the Never-Trumpers for seeing through this, but unfortunately Trump has been quite successful at selfishly manipulating low consciousness people into thinking of Trump as more than he is. Being able to con and manipulate others for selfish reasons is quite low consciousness; someone at Turquoise would be far beyond such behavior. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by DocWatts

[Loving Radiance]

@Consept @DocWatts

Now it's officially confirmed. This guy right here is solid Coral Just Coral could recognize the superhuman Turquoise capabilities of Trump.

[abrakamowse]

This guy pretty much nails it

 

http://www.integralworld.net/reynolds9.html

Quote

Donald Trump, on the other hand, resides more in the lower levels of RED and AMBER, a step backward from ORANGE scientific thinking. RED is egocentric, vigilant, impulsive, and aggressive — so has “Strong Man” tendencies — while AMBER is ethnocentric, nationalist, and religious faith-centered, which I think defines much of Trump's constituency, his voters; so let's average Trump as being an AMBER meme (or altitude). Granted, I conceded that by being a successful businessman living in the modern world, benefiting from the rewards of democracy and capitalism, it's also fair to say Trump has individualistic ORANGE leanings (beyond his dyed hair) — the developmental level before GREEN pluralism. Yet AMBER is how he presents himself to the average voter.

 

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, Loving Radiance said:

@Consept @DocWatts

Now it's officially confirmed. This guy right here is solid Coral Just Coral could recognize the superhuman Turquoise capabilities of Trump.

He would have to be because trump being turquoise is so far out of my understanding or consciousness that the only way to understand it, youd have to be coral or above lol

[Anderz]

@Consept If Trump is right then that would be an incredible shock for the whole anti-Trump world. It would make the Watergate scandal look like a picnic in comparison. It would to me prove that Trump is on top of the whole drain the swamp idea. Otherwise I will put Trump at mainly stage Orange.

[Leo Gura]

OMG Trump supporters are so dumb:

This is why populism is doomed to fail. You can't build a great country using its dumbest people. The Founding Fathers understood this but modern populist pundits do not.

[Lyubov]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is why populism is doomed to fail. You can't build a great country using its dumbest people. The Founding Fathers understood this but modern populist pundits do not.

I think they felt this way for the wrong reasons though. They didn't make this decision out of sound logic. It was more caste based back then. They probably just felt superior to everyone. We now know it's more complex through trial and error vs just assuming it b/c we feel better than those dirty farmers and slaves. 

[abrakamowse]

[Shin]

23 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

?????

«Even God is corrupted !Or maybe we are fools? ......... Naaaaah God is the devil, REVOLUTION !!!!!»

[abrakamowse]

23 minutes ago, Shin said:

?????

«Even God is corrupted !Or maybe we are fools? ......... Naaaaah God is the devil, REVOLUTION !!!!!»

???

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Lyubov said:

They probably just felt superior to everyone.

Consider the possibility that they WERE superior, which is why they felt superior.

2 hours ago, abrakamowse said:

Gold!