Toxic femininity, anyone?

[Farnaby]

@Gesundheit more love and respect= healthier. 

That's how I see it. What's your definition of health?

[Michal__]

Probably Kim Kardashian lol. 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There are some radical feminists who take feminism too far by turning it into an extreme Green ideology.

But this is much rarer than toxic masculinity.

I wrote the OP out of interest in 'toxic femininity' rather than 'toxic feminism' - which, ironically, is much more an expression of masculine than feminine traits IMO.

[Spiral]

Mob mentality, being passive-aggressive. 

[Gesundheit]

4 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

@Gesundheit

What's your definition of health?

I don't know. I guess that I just want to feel good, or at least don't feel bad.

[Moon]

15 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

I wrote the OP out of interest in 'toxic femininity' rather than 'toxic feminism' - which, ironically, is much more an expression of masculine than feminine traits IMO.

I think it depends which aspect you're looking at of "toxic feminism"

feminists who are violent for the cause would be an expression of toxic masculinity (stage red element though) 

feminists who make out all/most of their issues to be caused by men and are man-hating is victim mentality = toxic femininity 

 

[mandyjw]

2 hours ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Hmmm, okay, interesting. This would suggest that toxic femininity (god, how ridiculous this term sounds, lol) is largely about aggression against yourself, unless it manifests as manipulative behaviour (whereas toxic masculinity is usually portrayed as aggression against others). Do you agree with that assessment?

Mostly agree, I wouldn't say it's aggression against yourself, at least that's not conscious. It mostly seeks/attracts an external perpetrator to act out that aggressive role.  "Toxic" (or misunderstood) femininity or masculinity are about identification, one cannot strongly identify with something without having a strong opposite or antagonist. 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

59 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Mostly agree, I wouldn't say it's aggression against yourself, at least that's not conscious. It mostly seeks/attracts an external perpetrator to act out that aggressive role.  "Toxic" (or misunderstood) femininity or masculinity are about identification, one cannot strongly identify with something without having a strong opposite or antagonist. 

But what about women who are emotionally aggressive - if not downright abusive - against others (god knows I've had the pleasure of making acquaintance with some of those in my time, lol)? Would you say that this is their masculine side acting out, or is this also an expression of femininity?

Btw, I think a better term to use would be distorted masculinity/femininity. 'Toxic' makes it sound like there is something inherently wrong with being masculine or feminine, while 'distorted' puts emphasis on the fact that such negative traits are indeed aberrations from the natural way of expressing one's masculine or feminine energy.

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

1 hour ago, Moon said:

I think it depends which aspect you're looking at of "toxic feminism"

feminists who are violent for the cause would be an expression of toxic masculinity (stage red element though) 

feminists who make out all/most of their issues to be caused by men and are man-hating is victim mentality = toxic femininity 

 

Hm, that's an interesting perspective.

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Do you guys think that toxic femininity is a thing? And if so, then how does it look and what are examples of it?

Kellyanne Conway comes to mind. 

[Farnaby]

@Gesundheit lol I just noticed your name is exactly about what we're talking (fellow german speaker here). 

Yeah I agree on that and the things I mentioned that bring people together instead of apart usually make us feel good. 

[Gesundheit]

1 minute ago, Farnaby said:

@Gesundheit lol I just noticed your name is exactly about what we're talking (fellow german speaker here).

lol right?! I'm learning the language in case I go there sometime in the future. I'd finished the first level of the course a few weeks ago.

5 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

@Gesundheit 

Yeah I agree on that and the things I mentioned that bring people together instead of apart usually make us feel good. 

Maybe.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Alyosha said:

I must be hitting the lottery, because I see it more often than "rare" 

That's because reactionary right-wingers have made a cottage industry out of cherrypicking and demonizing feminism. As they do with BLM, socialism, homosexuality, gender identity, and many other reasonable things.

[mandyjw]

1 hour ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

But what about women who are emotionally aggressive - if not downright abusive - against others (god knows I've had the pleasure of making acquaintance with some of those in my time, lol)? Would you say that this is their masculine side acting out, or is this also an expression of femininity?

 

Like in what ways for example? 

I don't know, I think of being feminine as receptivity which when overly embraced means supporting, ignoring, condoning and accepting abuse. 

Emotion certainly is a power, "hell hath no fury".  That saying might come because women often repress and try to smile and act accepting so often until they finally can't and then it all comes out. Maybe you just notice seeing that power wielded for not so pure reasons. Everyone has emotions though, I think it's a mistake to equate them with being inherently feminine or masculine. It's just a bit more common for a woman's strength to be there. My parents for example are switched from the norms, my Mom has the intellectual strength, Dad has the emotional intelligence and emotional intelligence can certainly be used in a dominating way. I think you'll find most of your toxic masculinity examples are run on strong emotions and not much intellect.  

I don't know, but to me it seems that the masculine/feminine, emotional/intellectual differences really start to break apart the more I think about them. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by mandyjw

[Preety_India]

 

 

I had started the thread Toxic Masculinity. I don't know if this is an after thought to that.. 

Just as there is Toxic Masculinity there is Toxic Feminity as well. 

I think there are many aspects here. 

From both sides, patriarchy as well as feminism. 

I will touch on them one by one. 

Toxic Femininity and Toxic Feminism are two different things in my opinion. 

Also toxic feminism is ≠ feminism as many men like to put it out there. 

This whole negative connotation attributed to feminism hurts feminism and feminist movements which are not traditionally "man-hating" movement as a lot of the men like to parade it out there.. These are genuine movements meant to liberate women from the shackles of evil patriarchy and orthodox oppressive patriarchy and to empower women so they can live their life in peace. 

Such movements are important at least in third world countries where women are not even considered humans. 

So ridiculing such progressive movements or painting them in a bad light hurts the cause of women. 

You do realize that it's mostly women who get oppressed in major parts of the world. 

Maybe you don't see as much oppression in the West but the whole world is not the West. Majority of the world is poor and in poor countries the treatment of women is appalling. 

So always understand how you express your ideas and your connotations and how they can negatively impact legit movements in this world against injustice and oppression. 

Now I want to give some examples of toxic femininity and toxic feminism. 

Feminism should be about Empowering women. Educating them. Giving them the tools for a healthy independent survival, and creating an environment and a system which is healthy for their growth and not oppressive, liberating to their expression and a system where they won't feel terrorized. 

A woman does not have to live in constant fear of a man. Such a system is rotten at its core. It's evil patriarchy nonsense 

A woman needs a fairly gender neutral balanced system. No male domination bullshit. That's what feminism should be about. 

Feminism should be about abolishing male domination. Men cannot decide how women should live their life. Just like women don't decide how men live.. 

Also feminism should not be about establishing female domination because any domination is bad 

An equal system where powers are balanced and no gender is dominating over the other 

 

Expecting a woman to be sweet at all times. Expecting her to be a graceful angel delicate and sweet and polite.

 

 

This is toxic femininity. 

 

Just like with toxic masculinity, men are not allowed to be men, they are not allowed to express sadness or fear, in a similar way women are not allowed to express rage and anger. 

Rage and anger is also an emotion just as any other human emotion like grief, pain, fear, sadness, shock etc. 

Men are not allowed certain emotional expressions because it's considered weak or lame if they express themselves openly. This is inhibiting to them. 

In a similar way when a woman is not allowed to express rage and anger and outrage its inhibiting to her 

A woman is expected to simply swallow her anger and not express it even if her life is in danger. 

She is labeled "angry", mocked, ridiculed and shamed if she gets angry. 

So if I get sexually harassed, I'm not supposed to be angry or express my outrage? 

This is toxic femininity. It's completely to express any emotion which is invoked by the situation, be it male or female 

Women too get stressed out. They suffer too. They are humans. And just like humans they can have moments of tantrums, fits of rage, moments of impatience and distress which can pour out as anger and not so pleasant reactions.. 

To ridicule a woman for her natural emotional expressions is to dehumanize her. To consider her less of a human. 

 

Women feel pain too. And often this pain is expressed as anger. 

 

 

Expecting a woman to be a Saint. 

This is another example of toxic femininity. A woman is also a human, not just a woman. She is not to be completely 

In this category, men enjoy a lot or leverage and privilege over women.. 

You must have heard the phrase "men will be men" or "boys will be boys" being casually thrown around. 

 

If men can be men, then why can't women be women? 

 

Why can't women get away with doing wrong things. Why can't women have character flaws? 

And by wrong things I don't mean serious criminal things. I mean everyday character flaws. The regular character flaws. 

Why are women put on pedestal and then expected to act like a Saint? 

Does such treatment and double standard respect the humanity of a woman? The answer is no. 

Basically what this means is that women will be judged severely even for minor things. Such "saintly expectations" means a woman will be observed through a microscope, her every flaw will be magnified 1000 times. She will be shamed for 

In other words she has to be perfect or else she is not a woman 

 

Granted that moral values are to be expected from women, but they should be expected in equal measure from both men and women in a similar manner. 

By this I don't mean that women should be let off with for serious bad behaviors. But they should not be shamed for little things or demonized for things that are minor flaws of human nature. 

For example if a man gets drunk, it's no big deal. If a man acts selfish or gets greedy its no big deal. If a man acts bossy then no big deal. But if a woman acts selfish, then she is the most evil. If she got drunk, then she is the worst of all. 

This is nothing but toxic femininity by placing very high expectations on women to the point where they cannot be themselves.. 

 

Expecting a woman to be hyper sexual or else she is a prude. 

This is a general tendency in western countries 

This is the Madonna whore complex. If she is shy and docile and not being sexual enough, then she is a prude. Why can't she just be herself? 

Does a woman need to run around naked to prove that she has a vagina or to prove that she feels sexual? 

Her sex and sexual freedom is her business. 

Same with expecting a woman to be conservatively dressed or act very strict and not be sexual at all 

This expectation is found in countries where female sexual repression is very high. Generally eastern countries. 

If the woman is expressing her sexual side, then the men assume that she is a whore, she is asking to be raped, she is giving signals that all kinds of misbehavior is okay, or she is not supposed to act sexual. This is called repression and control.. 

A woman is free to express her sexual desires however she wants. If she doesn't like to dress provocatively, then it's her choice, she is not a prude for that. Her sexual ethics or styles are different. If she likes to dress provocatively, again it's her choice to express her sexuality. She is not a whore for that. 

True freedom and liberation lies in a woman's expression without being labeled for it 

 

 

Some serious cringe 

This is toxic femininity but not toxic feminism.. Just an example

This behavior coming from women is very toxic. Rape is a serious crime and to expect to get raped. It's messed up.

In this case the women are okaying wrong behavior. 

It's a different thing if they wanted him to be dominating in bed. 

But such an outright expression and using the word rape in this context is very inappropriate.

 

 

Womanhood and femininity does not lie in being a male. Of course a woman is totally free to be whatever and however she chooses to be. But the notion that a woman should be a man is a bit strange one. It's almost as if men said they wanted to be women. Can you see how odd that would be. Now this particular thought is strictly in context of men and women and not transgenders because trans people are allowed to be the opposite gender if they want to be. But this is outside of that context. To tell a woman that she has to be a woman is basically an assault on her womanhood. Why can't she be allowed to be herself? 

Do we expect men to be women? Then why expect a woman to be a man? 

Am I not a woman if I can't lift 20 pound weight. Do I stop being a woman if I cannot do things that men can easily do. 

It hurts feminism to say that every woman should work like a man. A woman may choose to not work and be a homemaker or do her own thing. Her preferences shouldn't be questioned. That's not called freedom. Freedom lies in being able to do what you want to do in life, how you want it and living your life by your own terms.. 

Empowering women is very different from forcing women. Empowering is giving them tools and resources and forcing is making rules and applying pressure. 

This is very nicely illustrated in this video by Christopher Hitchens. 

 

 

 

 

The Misuse of sexual powers 

When I showed this to my boyfriend he said, "she is not a woman. She is a boy who was born without a d*ck." 

In a sense yes. Womanhood does not lie in exploiting your sexual attractiveness in evil ways as a means to an end, to achieve something dangerous. Sexual attractiveness in both men and women is meant for romance and dating and relationships. And not as a weapon to get things done. Such women are a representation of toxic femininity. 

 

Giving more value to sexual attractiveness over moral character. 

I remember a few months ago I was watching a video of 2 teen girls who murdered their friend in cold blood. And I read a comment on the video from a man. He said he would totally do her, one of the killer girls because in his eyes she was totally hot. 

 

I pointed out to him how inappropriate it was to overlook that she participated in a gruesome murder and only focus on her looks. And he said he didn't care what she did as long as she was attractive. This is a problem. This is another example of toxic femininity where the only expectation from a gender is good looks and nothing else. In this case this toxicity is encouraged by such men.. 

Such men that you will come across that will find Jodi Arias attractive and would want to date her even after knowing what she did.. I cringe at it. 

Now the opposite is also an example of toxic femininity. Just reverse the gender roles. You have women who used to write love letters to Ted Bundy, fantasizing him. The world's most famous serial killer. This is another example of toxic femininity. Because such women encourage toxic men or toxic male behaviors. 

 

 

I think a lot of the times, women get away with such behavior just because they are women, somehow they can't do any wrong, or if they did, it's justified in some manner. Often times women justify their torture and abuse in the name of motherhood. 

A mother is not exempt from judgement just because of motherhood. 

A woman should not be exempt from judgement and punishment just because she is a woman. Granted that she can be let go for common human flaws and errors, but serious crimes and criminal behaviors  and dangerous behaviors should call for action and punishment 

Maternal abuse is just as common as paternal abuse but society finds it difficult to accept because somehow mothers are examples of divinity. This is a dangerous illusion. 

Women are equally capable of evil just as men 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Toxic femininity is a woman lying about rape, tricking a man into raising a child that isn't his, hitting a man, lying about abuse to get custody, marrying a man solely for money, playing manipulative games to get her way, cheating in a marriage and expecting the husband to put up with it etc etc etc

 

 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

16 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Like in what ways for example?

There are no concrete examples that come to my mind right now; but when I say 'emotionally aggressive', I am basically referring to the drama queen type of woman who is generally narcissistic, exuberant, fickle, petulant, (violently) impulsive, always eager to be the center of attention, easily offended, quick to make friends and even quicker to make enemies... I am sure you know the type, almost everybody does. (My own mother used to be kind of like that; and as a natural introvert, I suffered a lot from this - especially during childhood.)

Of course, there are some men - even presidents  - who fit this description as well, so I am not sure if any of these are specifically masculine or feminine traits. However, there seems to be a special feminine 'twist' to these characteristics that is rarely observable in men (unless we're speaking about drag queens, heh).

Edited August 31, 2020 by Bazooka Jesus

[Florian]

14 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Toxic femininity is a woman lying about rape, tricking a man into raising a child that isn't his, hitting a man, lying about abuse to get custody, marrying a man solely for money, playing manipulative games to get her way, cheating in a marriage and expecting the husband to put up with it etc etc etc

 

 

I think that's pretty good

[Moon]

22 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I immediately thought of this video. It's really good in articulating toxic femininity in a way that it doesn't seem like it's trolling. 

Karine Alourde's entire channel is a pretty good femininity channel because she recognizes the different forms femininity  can take according to culture and personality and she doesn't turn femininity into a dogma, a hypergamous mess, or this notion of being a pretty, perfect wife and mother. I would recommend her channel for both men and women when it comes to embracing femininity. 

Was just watching her stuff after you recommended her, subscribed