What is Marixsm? What is Capitalism?

[Focus Shift]

I've put together a pretty thorough presentation on the philosophy of Marxism and the philosophy of Capitalism to show how dysfunctional both these ideologies can be at their extremes. I did my best to show multiple points of view on this topic and even point to a bit of a non dual perspective here and there. What do you think of the arguments that are being made here? I'm making the kind of content that I wish were shown in school. 

[Leo Gura]

Good topic

[Focus Shift]

@Husseinisdoingfine My point in creating the video was to examine both worldviews and see which one is more damaging and to what degree. Yes, in Capitalist societies, there is a great deal of exploitation and greed. However, it is still possible to move upward. Perhaps a synergy of Capitalism and Socialism is possible, that way business can use its strengths to provide products and services, while still having a few guardrails to create more fair market. 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Focus Shift said:

in Capitalist societies

Is there really such a thing though?

Which country has a purely capitalist society?

[Tanz]

12 hours ago, Focus Shift said:

@Husseinisdoingfine My point in creating the video was to examine both worldviews and see which one is more damaging and to what degree. Yes, in Capitalist societies, there is a great deal of exploitation and greed. However, it is still possible to move upward. Perhaps a synergy of Capitalism and Socialism is possible, that way business can use its strengths to provide products and services, while still having a few guardrails to create more fair market. 

@Leo Gura
Not at all.  The nations like America that claim to be free market has little entry points when it comes to politics and big business. The amount of free funding that institution gets is distributed from taxpayer money.  

 

[Fran11]

It's not static but a dynamic balance.

In low economic developed countries, relatively free markets (without rigt-wing exaggerations) cause more business oportunity and developement. More deveilery also, but at this stage the material conditions are so poor that is worth the trade off.

As a country becomes more developed, it can tax more, limit abuses better, sacrificing a little bit of business oportunities in order to prioritize focus on more subtle social aspects. This usually comes latter and it may be counter-producent trying to skip phases. Like @Leo Gura showed in the World Value Survay video, happiness of societies stops increasing with economic developement after a certein point, thd trade-off made before starts not being worthy anyomore and values change.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Fran11

[Bodigger]

19 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

No, I don't think any country on Earth has yet to achieve a synthesis of Cap and Soc 

I imagine what a mix of these two would look like would be some sort of Social Democracy where 50% of the GDP is public.

Social Democracy after all is seen as the synthesis of $ and ☭. 

I think Norway, Sweden, Austria are 50%.  Is this correct?

[Bodigger]

1 hour ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

No

Do you have any documentation of what the percentages are?

I found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_spending_as_percentage_of_GDP#:~:text=Sortable table (not available on mobile) , 2.189 55 more rows

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, datamonster said:

I am German and I can tell you that in Germany you can live your entire life without ever having to get up from your couch and the government will still feed you, provide you with a comfy home and even technology.

This reminds me of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs driving motivation. According to the theory, there is motivation to meets one's basic needs (e.g. food and shelter). Once those needs are met, a new motivation toward higher levels can arise, such as motivation to participate in social groups, to learn, to personally develop, to create, to contribute to society etc.

It sounds like in Germany, the lower basic needs are met. By your observations, do you think this generally leads to less motivated people (since basic needs are met) or does it allow for people to pursue their higher potential? In other words, do you think most people that have basic needs met are motivated to take advantage of the opportunity to strive for higher personal needs and goals?

[Yog]

I felt extremely strong socialistic element in Denmark. I was surprised of how well it worked. I miss that place.

[Yog]

2 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Do you have any documentation of what the percentages are?

I found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_spending_as_percentage_of_GDP#:~:text=Sortable table (not available on mobile) , 2.189 55 more rows

Hm, are the percentages even that important ? It seems like quite a simplistic measure to me.

Lets say, hypothetically, what if a government did not own much, but it regulated everything very justly and efficiently, would we consider that as a strong socialist-capitalist synergy ?

[Bodigger]

5 minutes ago, Yog said:

Hm, are the percentages even that important ? It seems like quite a simplistic measure to me.

Lets say, hypothetically, what if a government did not own much, but it regulated everything very justly and efficiently, would we consider that as a strong socialist-capitalist synergy ?

Are you asking me?  I am only attempting to see where @Husseinisdoingfine  is going with his comment below.

4 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

No, I don't think any country on Earth has yet to achieve a synthesis of Cap and Soc 

I imagine what a mix of these two would look like would be some sort of Social Democracy where 50% of the GDP is public.

Social Democracy after all is seen as the synthesis of $ and ☭. 

And understand where we are at in some countries at this point in time.

[Yog]

@Bodigger Hm, yea, its more of a question for him actually, still its an open question for anyone.

Just cant get why is GDP the focal metric. It feels to me like it should be something in the lines of "government power" in a given sector, not necessary having to do much with money or GDP.

[Focus Shift]

@Leo Gura Alright, "Capitalist Leaning" societies to be precise   

[Forestluv]

@datamonster Thank you, that is a great description of pros and cons. Germany is further on the socialism spectrum than the U.S. and I think it's hard for Americans to imagine what it's like. Especially those over 50 yrs old. They were conditioned to believe that socialism was scary Stalin type stuff. 

You had mentioned that some people choose not to work a menial job because they can be taken care of without working. Yet if their basic needs are met and higher education is essentially free (paid by social taxes), why wouldn't someone develop goals they want to pursue? For example, a creative writer, artist, psychologist etc.? If there are no financial barriers, are there other barriers blocking them? Are some people unambitious and don't want to learn, develop skills and work?  Or perhaps they have depression or drug dependency issues?

Also, do you think the social support funds distributed fairly? Is it harder for some people to get access to social services due to discrimination?

[Leo Gura]

The data pretty clearly shows that Scandinavian countries have the highest levels of happiness, health, and overall well-being of all the nations.

So clearly their Social Dem systems are the best mankind has invented so far. They seem to strike a good balance between capitalism and socialism.

[Loving Radiance]

@datamonster good description

What do you think of "trash TV"? Does it impact in any way the culture and thus people being stuck?

[fridjonk]

15 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

I do have issues with the Scandinavian Social Democratic system, 

 

You won't understand and appreciate how great this system is unless you've lived in it for years. 

[Focus Shift]

@Leo Gura Agreed. The Nordic countries also have better criminal justice as well. 

[Focus Shift]

My ultimate view comes down to this. Both of these systems are exploitative, but at least under capitalism I can have a decent amount of choice while being exploited. Capitalism is a relatively decent system, but still needs some polish. Fundamentally our values and state of consciousness need to change before anything else, then the economic systems will reflect accordingly.