Kenosha shooting

[Bodigger]

6 hours ago, Forestluv said:

You are assuming police and the justice system have integrity and can be trusted, which is true from your perspective. Yet consider things from another perspective. Imagine living in a place where the police and justice system cannot be fully trusted. If you get into a run in with police, there is a real chance you will get abused and screwed over in the justice system - even if you’ve done nothing wrong and comply. In these situations, it’s probably best to comply, yet you don’t know for sure and evading / resisting police is an option on the table to consider. 

Been there and done that.  My past has it's share of time in jail, and there are police officers who judge people as guilty for just being incarcerated.  However, the majority of police are caring and compassionate.  I was not guilty of everything, but I did put myself in the situation which was due to the choices I had made.  IMO, the people who are in jail, are in there mostly because of the decisions they have made, and nothing will change for them until they take on that responsibility, and become willing to be a responsible person.  The vast majority of police and the justice system have integrity, and the same cannot be said for criminal.  People with integrity will most likely side with others who have a collective of integrity in the system.

[Forestluv]

33 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

IMO, the people who are in jail, are in there mostly because of the decisions they have made, and nothing will change for them until they take on that responsibility, and become willing to be a responsible person.  The vast majority of police and the justice system have integrity, and the same cannot be said for criminal.  People with integrity will most likely side with others who have a collective of integrity in the system.

I think you make some good points and I agree that personal responsibility is an important factor, yet it is one factor. I also think you are minimizing other contributing factors and aren’t acknowledging serious systemic problems. 

We may give different meanings to the idea of integrity. For me, integrity includes taking responsibility for one’s actions and integrity is also acknowledging and speaking out against inequalities and injustices - even when one is not negatively impacted by those inequalities and injustices. 

And I’m impressed by the amount of personal responsibility you took. When I was younger, I spent brief periods on jail and had severe alcoholic issues to the point it almost killed me. It was extremely difficult to look at myself and take responsibility for my actions and to stop blaming others. Yet I can also see environmental inputs. Imagine a child that grows up in poverty, is severely abused, has PTSD, serious psychological Issues and no resources for help in his community. What if this damaged person lashes out his trauma? At what point does our compassion for him end? On his 18th birthday? If he lashes out against another during a PTSD episode? Can we simply just tell him “Take responsibility for your actions?”. Or should we also look at the bigger picture of what type of society we have, if we have resources to help those in need, if wealth inequality allows tens of millions of people to suffer while 20 mega billionaires blow coke with hookers on their yacht - paid for by taxpayer money. To me, personal responsibility is just one piece of the larger puzzle. 

I would also say their is a range of personal responsibility. During the opioid crisis, pharmaceutical CEOs intentionally tried to get as many people as possible addicted to opioids to increase profits. They manipulated doctors to push drugs. A lot of people trust their doctors and were very vulnerable. Millions of people become addicted and suffered terribly. Do we place 100% responsibility on the individual and place 0% responsibility on the pharmaceutical CEOs? Similarly during the housing crisis: Banking criminals created toxic loans that intentionally sent people into bankruptcy and the Banking criminals shorted those loans and made billions of dollars as hundreds of thousands of people lost their homes. These loans were intentionally written in highly technical terms that the average person didn’t fully understand and they trusted their real estate agent. Do we place 100% responsibility to the individual and turn a blind eye to the corrupt Bankers?

[Proserpina]

20 hours ago, Forestluv said:

If you get into a run in with police, there is a real chance you will get abused and screwed over in the justice system - even if you’ve done nothing wrong and comply. In these situations, it’s probably best to comply, yet you don’t know for sure and evading / resisting police is an option on the table to consider. 

Yup. Don't underestimate the masculine.  First mistake. 

[Opo]

1 hour ago, Proserpina said:

Yup. Don't underestimate the masculine.  First mistake. 

What? 

[Proserpina]

48 minutes ago, Opo said:

What? 

Grey rock.

[Opo]

1 hour ago, Proserpina said:

Grey rock.

Got em. 

But seriously how is that masculinity? 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Opo

[Enlightenment]

On 8/30/2020 at 5:57 AM, BLACKHOLE said:

It’s very painful to see so many business owners that have lost their lifetime businesses because of the looters. All these business owners are decent and hardworking people that have nothing to do with Racism or Dems or Reps but somehow they have ended up paying the highest price. It’s hard to understand why so much hatred toward so many innocent people.

Yes, painful to watch like this video

https://streamable.com/h65jsx

Terrorism 

[Bodigger]

On 9/3/2020 at 2:21 PM, Forestluv said:

I would also say their is a range of personal responsibility. During the opioid crisis, pharmaceutical CEOs intentionally tried to get as many people as possible addicted to opioids to increase profits. They manipulated doctors to push drugs. A lot of people trust their doctors and were very vulnerable. Millions of people become addicted and suffered terribly. Do we place 100% responsibility on the individual and place 0% responsibility on the pharmaceutical CEOs? Similarly during the housing crisis: Banking criminals created toxic loans that intentionally sent people into bankruptcy and the Banking criminals shorted those loans and made billions of dollars as hundreds of thousands of people lost their homes. These loans were intentionally written in highly technical terms that the average person didn’t fully understand and they trusted their real estate agent. Do we place 100% responsibility to the individual and turn a blind eye to the corrupt Bankers?

Is placing responsibility the same as blame?  If it is, then I don't see how the act of blaming others for our problems are relative.  Or did I miss your point.....

[Forestluv]

18 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Is placing responsibility the same as blame?  If it is, then I don't see how the act of blaming others for our problems are relative.  Or did I miss your point.....

Responsibility and blame are inter-related. The term blame has a different connotation because it suggests one is avoiding taking personal responsibility. I see it as an interplay.

For example, if someone breaks into my home, shoots me and I become paralyzed - I will have a new set of problems in life. In one context, I can create problems. I could have a mentality that I am a victim, I can no longer be productive in life and blame all my problems on the shooter. I could avoid taking any personal responsibility for my own mindset. Another mindset would be that I have a new productive role in life. Perhaps I can be a motivational speaker. Perhaps I can become an advocate for those with disabilities. 

Yet in another context, if I get shot and paralyzed by a burglar, I am also a victim of this crime. The new set of problems in my life due to hospital bills, inability to work, rehabilitation, PTSD, therapy, mental anguish etc. are due to the burglar shooting me. It’s not fair to place all the responsibility on the paralyzed person and not place any responsibility upon the shooter for the harm he caused.

I see it is a combination. There is both internal and external causation that is inter-connected. In SD terms, this is the integration of Orange and Green.

There is also the issue if there is personal free will in making choices. Most discussions about personal responsibility have the assumption of personal free will. That has practical value in society, yet it is an assumption that restricts from further investigation.