MBTI question

[Carl-Richard]

I struggle to find a definitive difference between the traits Sensing/Intuition and Perceiving/Judging. I feel that both go under the Big Five trait of Openness and that there is a very severe overlap between them.

Quote

Favorite world: Do you prefer to focus on the outer world or on your own inner world? This is called Extraversion (E) or Introversion (I).

Information: Do you prefer to focus on the basic information you take in or do you prefer to interpret and add meaning? This is called Sensing (S) or Intuition (N).

Decisions: When making decisions, do you prefer to first look at logic and consistency or first look at the people and special circumstances? This is called Thinking (T) or Feeling (F).

Structure: In dealing with the outside world, do you prefer to get things decided or do you prefer to stay open to new information and options? This is called Judging (J) or Perceiving (P).

https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/

They are so freaking similar. Can somebody walk me through the differences? Thanks  

Edited August 26, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[soos_mite_ah]

From what I understood, sensors are people who focus more on the details while intuitives are more focused with the big picture. Like if you show them an abstract painting, a sensor will look at it and admire the colors and the brush strokes while intuitives will look for symbolism and deeper meaning. This dichotomy has to do with how information/ and experiences are processed

When it comes to judging and perceiving, judgers are more plan oriented while perceivers are more spontaneous. This dichomy has to do with how you react to events and experiences. 

 

You can be well planned out and be detail oriented. You could be well planned out and focused on big picture understanding. 

Or you can be spontaneous and detail oriented. You can also be spontaneous with big picture understanding 

Regardless of whether you are well planned out, spontaneous, detail oriented, or focused on the big picture, you can always be open to experience. 

[Espaim]

@Artsu

[lmfao]

Just to clarify what the models are. The four letters in the MBTI system is nothing but a code for your functional stack. 

The "16 personalities" website is dishonest and is big 5 traits, pretending it is MBTI in it's marketing. 

----
MBTI isn't about having 4 dimensions of measurement. It's about cognitive functions. The 4 letters are just a code for different stacks. It is still meaningful however to talk about each letter individually in general terms. 

You are correct in seeing a correlation between MBTI and big 5. Perceiving/Judging is more to do with conscientiousness and sensing/intuition is more to do with openness, which are two independent traits in big 5, albeit the mapping isn't perfect. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by lmfao

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, lmfao said:

Perceiving/Judging is more to do with conscientiousness and sensing/intuition is more to do with openness, which are two independent traits in big 5, albeit the mapping isn't perfect. 

Makes sense. I guess openminded people tend to be less conscientious aswell.

[Artsu]

There is a metadichotomy of yin yang that applies to the other dichotomies. Intuition is yin and sensing is yang, perceiving is yin and judging is yang.

When compared with each other, these two dichotomies have little in common besides openness, and they're open in different ways.

J is goal focused, P adjusts to surroundings, thus taking in new information.

S is focused on the concrete, N is focused on the abstract, conceptual, speculative, and has a preference for novelty and new approaches.

So they are both open in the sense of preferring new information, but in Se, the new information is what's around you and what is concrete.

Si and Ni are apperceptive, meaning they see the world through a subjective lens. Si has a preference for the known, Ni for the unknown.

SPs will be drawn to physical experiences, NJs will conceive of new ways to see things. Both have a bit of the other.

Hopefully that clears things up.

Edit: also, SJs seek to improve the certainty of information and adherence to previous standards, thus running contrary to openness. NPs are drawn to new ideas and are the most open. Again, each has a bit of the other.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Artsu

[Artsu]

On 27/08/2020 at 10:33 AM, soos_mite_ah said:

From what I understood, sensors are people who focus more on the details while intuitives are more focused with the big picture. Like if you show them an abstract painting, a sensor will look at it and admire the colors and the brush strokes while intuitives will look for symbolism and deeper meaning. This dichotomy has to do with how information/ and experiences are processed

When it comes to judging and perceiving, judgers are more plan oriented while perceivers are more spontaneous. This dichomy has to do with how you react to events and experiences. 

 

You can be well planned out and be detail oriented. You could be well planned out and focused on big picture understanding. 

Or you can be spontaneous and detail oriented. You can also be spontaneous with big picture understanding 

Regardless of whether you are well planned out, spontaneous, detail oriented, or focused on the big picture, you can always be open to experience. 

This is pretty much it, except that there is a correlation between being open to experience (in big 5) and focusing on the big picture, and somewhat with being spontaneous.

(Big picture/intuiton/idea focus and spotaneity/perceiving/adaptiveness are not correlated, or not very significantly correlated at least)

Edited August 29, 2020 by Artsu

[Carl-Richard]

10 hours ago, Artsu said:

This is pretty much it, except that there is a correlation between being open to experience (in big 5) and focusing on the big picture, and somewhat with being spontaneous.

(Big picture/intuiton/idea focus and spotaneity/perceiving/adaptiveness are not correlated, or not very significantly correlated at least)

If I were to use the sheet I gave, there are many things that seem to correlate (weakly or strongly) between N and P:

Granted, I'm comparing full sentences with other full sentences, and that may cause additional inaccuracy.

[Artsu]

Those connections don't seem that strong to me. 

For example, tentative speech, and complex/metaphorical speech are not that similar.

There's going to be overlap in how dichotomies are described because we have limited language.

Overall, there shouldn't be much similarity, so treat the dichotomies as completely separate, with maybe some interesting connections.

[Yog]

@Carl-Richard  Ill try help, help with a poem!! lol.

Actually two poems:
One Se dominant, one Ni dominant. Maybe the differences will become obvious, lets see.


Se:
a wet, hot tear slid
on top of her pale cheek

as it did, it split
by the few dimples
pores and wrinkles

dripping
one at a time

slapping, evaporating
on top the clean
cold stone floor

I am lesser
than I have ever been

Ni:
a wet, hot tear slid
on top of her pale cheek

cheek
cold and white
like the icy wastes

tear
hot and bright
as a purging fire

in it i dwell and burn
bent and twisted
like a desert tree

bent and twisted
by words hard to grip

I fall, as it falls
hitting, slapping, evaporating
on top the cold stone floor

____________________________
It turned out a quite goth, lol...nvm

First 2 lines are the Se gateway.

Se dominant stays in the Se space, observing sensory details and facts. It stays with the data, as is.

Ni dominant grabs the the first few Se-sensory facts, goes beyond them right away and looks for similar patterns that he/she has experienced and tries to link them, this usually results in metaphoric thinking.
Makes sense ? ?

This can also be helpful, its timestamped, also has cool visual sketches:
 

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Yog

[Carl-Richard]

@Yog I was talking about the similarities between N and P, not Se and Ni. Or am I that confused?

[Yog]

@Carl-Richard  I thought you were looking to differentiate between all of them judging by the first sentence you wrote, the Ni-Se was just an example to provide contrast.

N - does advanced pattern gathering. It gathers data.
P-  is a mode of acting. (do I plan a batch of things, and than do them (J), or do I do them as I perceive them (P))

I think this explains it well, as far as I remember.
 

 

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Yog said:

@Carl-Richard  I thought you were looking to differentiate between all of them judging by the first sentence you wrote, the Ni-Se was just an example to provide contrast.

I should've made it more clear: N vs P and S vs J.

[Artsu]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Yog I was talking about the similarities between N and P, not Se and Ni. Or am I that confused?

Se is a strong function of SPs, and Ni is a strong function of NJs.

So contrasting Se and Ni contrasts NJ with SP, allowing the differences between the two dichotomies to be seen.

The dilemma you've presented about N resembling P is something I've noticed, but it's not a big deal regarding the theory. Learn about the cognitive functions if you haven't already, and think of dichotomies and functions as saying the same thing from a different angle.

N means that a top 2 function is intuition (Ni or Ne), P means that the top two functions consist of extroverted perception and introverted judgment.

Ps get their openness from the way they absorb information from the environment through extroverted perception. Ns get their openness from the way they seek out new kinds of information, rather staying with what they know.

[Yog]

@Carl-Richard  I agree with Artsu, its better to understand what each cognitive function does, and how does it behave depending on the position it is in. Try to see the default stack that you get, as a formula from which you can extract the cognitive functions. And than you focus on how they work together in their particular order. I'll elaborate a bit more on the formula Artsu just gave.

This is some extra info on it:
J = Your first extroverted function is the 3 one in the stack. In the INTJ example it is T, which makes it Te.
I = Your first function in the stack will be the introverted one which in the INTJ case is Ni. If you have pinpointed the extroverted (T), it means the other one is introverted.

So INTJ = Ni Te

In the ENTJ case. It would be similar. You get the the third one to be extroverted as well because you have J at the end. So it is Te again.
But you have E at the start, which means your first cognitive function is the extroverted one. Which happens to be Te.

So ENTJ = Te Ni

Now, P means your first extroverted function is the 2 one in the stack. And than you apply the same logic with the I or E.
INTP for eg has N as the second, this means N is extroverted, which makes it Ne, that by default means that T is introverted, hence Ti. And because INTP has I at the start it means it will have Ti as the first one and Ne as the second one.

INTP = Ti Ne

You get the 3 and the 4 one by the logic of:
4 is the opposite of 1
3 is the opposite of 2

So in the INTP case it is:

1= Ti
2 = Ne
3 = Si
4 = Fe

The poles are T-F and N-S. If one is extroverted, the other is introverted.
That is pretty much it.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Yog
Probably useful highlights.

[EddieEddie1995]

@Yog Thank you for this information! Makes things a lot clearer for me

[SriSriJustinBieber]

You are learning about the MBTI from a questionable source imo, that's why you are confused.

Intuition is an abstract way of collecting (Ne) and organizing (Ni) data.

Judging (J) & Perceiving (P) refer to what the first function of the individual is. 

 

If I am an introverted perceiver (Ni or Si as the 1st or 2nd function), I will have J in the end of my MBTI acronym and will be labeled a Judger. 

Ni-dom: INFJ, INTJ  // Ni-auxiliary: ENFJ, ENTJ.

Si-dom: ISTJ, ISFJ // Si-auxiliary: ESTJ, ESFJ.

 

If I am an introverted judger (Ne or Se as 1st or 2nd function), I will have P in the end of my MBTI acronym and will be labeled a Perceiver.

Ne-dom: (ENFP, ENTP) // Ne-auxiliary: INFP, INTP

Se-dom: (ESTP, ESFP) // Se-auxiliary: ISTP, ISFP

 

But wtf is a judger or a perceiver in the first place ????

A judger (J in the end), is someone who defines the outer world first, leaves oneself undefined, then develops strategies to fit in, react, answer (etc), to the world. This is why they are "judgers" by mbti terminology : for them, the world is "that way" people are like "this"  etc.

A perceiver (P in the end), is someone who defines oneself, and leaves the world undefined. That's why perceivers will be described as more spontaneous and all the BS you can find all over the MBTI websites.

 

Use this as the entry point and things will become clearer. There are a few distinctions between P & J that are not covered by the definition I gave you (like the way they perceive time & space) but you'll learn this on the go.

Edited September 1, 2020 by SriSriJustinBieber

[Giancarlo]

Another way to explain it is that the J and P determines whether your Judging or Perceiving function will be extroverted.

So someone who's an INTJ has their Judging process (in this case Thinking) as the extraverted function (Te), which leaves the N to be introverted (Ni).

Alternatively, someone who's an INTP has their Perceiving process as the extraverted function (Ne), which means that the Judging process will be introverted (Ti).

Then the first letter (I Introversion or E Extroversion) determines which of those processes comes first!

So for an INTJ:

1 - Introverted Intuition (NI)
2 - Extraverted Thinking (Te)

And for an INTP:

1 - Introverted Thinking (Ti)
2 - Extraverted Intuition (Ne)

Hope this helps!

[Carl-Richard]

Yeah I know nothing about MBTI, that's for sure