Rising - Getting Worse and Worse

[Forestluv]

On 9/9/2020 at 11:47 PM, SunCat said:

@Forestluv On the surface, it seems like Biden is worse than Trump. Trump's vulgarity makes the appearance even worse.

Unlike Ben Shapiro, I'm ok with the "P-word"

On 9/9/2020 at 11:47 PM, SunCat said:

@Forestluv Biden's platform on his website makes it seem like he is better, but in the end, he will not do anything to mitigate the growing income inequality and idt I need to preach to the quire about what he will not do and his record. 

I think Biden is a highly problematic neoliberal. I'm aware of Biden's track record.

On 9/9/2020 at 11:47 PM, SunCat said:

 

Biden will serve his corporate donors, not the people, and he was instrumental in installing the harmful policies we have today.

That is why green needs to fight hard against Biden. Green progressives need to continue the fight against Orange corporations. The question is not whether Green will be fighting, the question is whether Green will be fighting against Red/Blue or fighting against Orange. As I said, I see Biden as highly problematic with dangers. In the long-term bigger picture, I think your anti-Biden, anti-corporate passion is very important for progress. 

On 9/9/2020 at 11:47 PM, SunCat said:

What makes you think Biden will listen to us more than Trump would?

I see Biden as much weaker ideologically than Trump. As well, Trump at Red/Blue sees Green as enemies that should be imprisoned and killed. Biden is at Orange and much closer to Green. He does not see Green as enemies that must be destroyed. I see Biden as relatively weak that has some sense of sympathy toward Green causes.

On 9/9/2020 at 11:47 PM, SunCat said:

And after Biden, what do you think will come next if the corporations that protect elections will have more power to continue to rig elections? Telecom and Big Tech will be more powerful in censoring our info. Our military and economic imperialism will proceed and lead to more environmental exacerbation. The prison and police system will continue with the author of the Crime Bill and the top cop in charge. We could have 8 more years of Kamala and then 8 years of a Tom Cotton or Ted Cruz as president.

This is all speculation. I would say that this scenario is a possibility, yet just a possibility - there are many other possibilities as well. 

Again, I am not a Biden supporter - I am very critical of Biden and think he is highly problematic is various ways. To me, you are under-estimating the danger of Trump.  I would rather fight Biden than Trump. 

On 9/9/2020 at 11:47 PM, SunCat said:

 

We have to stop relying solely on electoral politics. We need to go beyond that. Still vote downballot for progressives. But we need to organize, protest  and inform, not sit every 4 years for more worse options. The lesser of 2 evils strategy is why we are here. We have to stop rewarding bad behavior with our votes. We don't have time.

I agree that the fight continues whoever is elected. I agree of the importance of voting downballot for progressives, organizing, protesting, informing etc. I would love to see progressives take of the Dem party or for a new progressive 3rd party to arise and take over. I think harsh criticism of Biden is important. Yet the reality is that Bernie unfortunately lost. My preference would have been more rapid structural and ideological change with Bernie. Yet Bernie lost and to me the next best option is slower incremental change. The reality is that Biden or Trump will be elected president. Yes that sucks. It sucks hard. I wish it wasn't true, yet that is the reality. Every option for progressives right now sucks. We are in an awful position with no good options. To me, the strategy most likely to have longer term success would be to remove Trump, fight Biden and show the country the toxicity of neoliberalism and when they fail - show the country neoliberalism cannot solve our problems and offer a better solution of progressiveness. Try to gain as much power as possible within the dem party or get a 3rd party going. Does this option have risks? Yep? Does it suck? Yep. Yet noone has shown me a more likely path of success. 

On 9/9/2020 at 11:47 PM, SunCat said:

We don't have time.

To me, saying we don't have time would suggest a massively violent revolution / massive civil war is needed. I'm not there yet. I would be considered a democratic socialist that tries to evolve existing broken structures. 

On 9/10/2020 at 3:44 AM, Gidiot said:

wait can you clarify, isnt it a great idea to form a major third party that could be nationally viable?

I can see value in creating a new progressive party like the People's Party if it was actually viable and able to grasp some power. My concern would be dividing progressive support into progressive democrats and the People's party. Unfortunately, a two party system is structurally entrenched in the U.S. I'm encouraged by recent progressive victories, especially what Rhode Island Progressives were able to accomplish. In the short-term I think there is a better chance of gaining significant power in the Dem party - such as having a progressive majority in the House and a progressive speaker like AOC. To me, this is the most direct route to actual power. I also think ranked choice voting and campaign finance reform is important.

On 9/10/2020 at 3:44 AM, Gidiot said:

@Forestluv regardless of whether or not you vote for biden. I mean i think there is a pretty good chance that the progressive dems could defect and that would just be huge on its own. the dem party has many loyalists but i feel like that number is shrinking, i could be wrong, but its awfuly hard to believe that it could be taken over anytime soon, maybe in decades but peoples party has a very good infrastructure that i have investigated (im part of the movement and the founding convention hopefully). 

I think there is a MUCH higher likelihood of mass Dem defections if Trump wins. That would mean two neoliberals in a row lost to Trump - who is an awful candidate. I could see progressives getting so fed up they had enough and are unwilling to be associated with neoliberals in a second Trump term. This could be good in some ways, yet there is extreme risk of damage in a second Trump term and I see this as having a higher probability of harmful outcome. . . If Biden wins, I think most progressives will want to gain power within the party within a Biden presidency. 

On 9/10/2020 at 3:44 AM, Gidiot said:

 

i agree with leo and ryan knight, both are right, you should vote your conscience but also electing biden isnt an endorsement of biden for most of the people to the left of him. we will fight him too - David doel says who would you rather fight, I think the best strategy is to vote harm reduction and to also apply pressure with third parties and dem primaries...do we agree? haha

I lean toward David Doel, yet I think those in the Ryan Knight camp are super important. If Biden wins, we need strong anti-Biden, anti-neoliberal passion for the fight. In my view, people like Ryan Knight are genuinely anti-neoliberal to their core and want to fight like hell. That is super important and I'm a big supporter of Ryan Knighters. Moderate Dems like at the DailyKos will be making excuses and defending a president Biden. We need a camp fighting Biden.

I think the best realistic scenario we can hope for now is counter-intuitive. I'm hoping for the most anti-Biden, anti-neoliberal energy on the left as possible with a Biden win. Then during a Biden presidency an intense left attack comes in led by Nina Turner, AOC, Cornel West, Ryan Knight, Kyle, Dore etc. Enough for progressives to gain considerable power within the Dem party, get ranked choice voting and/or start a viable 3rd party. I realize this is a hard path with risks, yet progressives don't have any good options at this point.

[diamondpenguin]

What does that mean? Rising, worse and worse? 

[ItsNick]

More left-wing YouTube channels calling him out

[Gidiot]

@Forestluv amen, by the way I wasn’t really thinking of it in a chronological order, I was thinking  vote Biden and encourage more progressives in the house/ senate/ build a 3rd party all at the same time, Ed markeys victory in the senate was great. And then eventually if a viable 3rd Party has a great infrastructure( peoples party talking about running Nina in 2024) then the pressure from that would eventually get those dems to defect to that party and hopefully we will have ballot access and state parties by then - this isn’t wishful thinking, we are getting signatures right now and working hard to make this a reality with a national cal every week. But yea I digress, I would consider myself more of a Ryan knight but I’m still voting Biden. I think your plan is correct elect Biden and when he fails present a new alternative with the Overton window to the left. 
 

it’s not as problematic as a strategy as you think either, it’s much better than kissing the ass of Obama which is what people did until roughly 2016. People won’t kiss the ass of Biden I’m sure at least progressives wont

 

and trust me @SunCat I’m well aware that Biden and the majority of dems are a pro Israel/ pro fracking/ pro corporate welfare/ ethnic state/ Palestinian dehumanizing/ patriot act voting party and I hate most of what they stand for but they are better than the republicans so until we have a nationally viable third party I am voting for them, I will gladly take my voting power to the peoples party and relatively soon, Biden is terrible and I hate lesser of two evils too but sometimes you gotta do things you dislike in life, not talking down to you just saying we have a corrupt election system and we are trying to fix it so please don’t lecture someone fighting for your cause. I don’t like purity tests cause no one is truly pure not even Bernie or aoc or any politician.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Gidiot