Rising - Getting Worse and Worse

[Leo Gura]

By definition if you are regressing down one stage, it's unconscious. Regression IS a lapse in consciousness.

People are not choosing these things. These "choices" are simply baked into their habitual low-consciousness behaviors.

[SunCat]

@Leo Gura Did you read the Huffpost article I posted? Several of the policies that Trump can legally practice now, like sending feds and kidnapping protesters, militirizing the police and ICE, arresting people without warrants if they can be classified as terrorists, etc. were Joe Biden's pet projects during the Obama administration. This is fascism practiced by Obama/Biden. Joe Biden isn't just someone who was "friendly to rapists." He, like Trump, IS A RAPIST. Joe Biden is a fascist.

DAPL, Ferguson, Flint, Cages on the border, Occupy, Lybia's open slave market, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, overexploitating fracking, opening the Arctic to drilling, the US becoming the number one exporter of oil. Who started all this?

You're not practicing conscious politics by continually practicing a failed strategy of the lesser of two evils illusion. We need to do more than just sit around and vote for a president every 4 years. Obama did more damage than Bush and thats always going to be the trend of succeeding presidents until we realize that pledging your vote before a candidate adopts any of the policies we need is foolish. 

Please read more history, dive deep into political records, you're already doing a great job with meditating and systems thinking. But please read more from journalists instead of mostly listening uncritically to neoliberal talking points from certain youtube commentators who confirm your bias. You can have a better argument for why voting for Biden is better than not voting for either him or Trump if you acknowledge the article i posted, read more, and tried to understand my position more instead of just dismissing it because you think you have it all figured out.

We had Trump after Obama. I wonder what we'll get after 8-12 years of Biden and Harris? The overton window keeps shifting to the right among our corporatist and even "progressives" like AOC who aren't held accountable enough because we make too many excuses for them. And that Doomsday Clock is a few seconds away from midnight. Time to do more than just "vote."

Edited September 7, 2020 by SunCat

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, SunCat said:

Joe Biden is a fascist.

Bahahahaha...

[SunCat]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Bahahahaha...

14 points of Facism https://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php

2. Disdain for the recognition of human rights
Obama/Biden pardoned torturers, war criminals, turned the prosperous Libya into a slave state, separating children from the border, placing them in cages, and deporting more people than any other president

3. Identification of enemies as unifying cause
Asassinatined Bin Laden, Coup in Honduras, attempted Coup in Venezuela, demonizing Iran as the state sponsor of terror, saber rattling Russia, & China and supporting Ukrainian fascist

4. Supremacy in the military
Did we not go from 2 wars to 7 w/ Biden as VP, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, Syria were new wars under his watch... While drinking "Flint water" DAPL, occupy wall street, militarizing the police, and getting rid of Habeas corpus

5. Rampant Sexism
Biden digitally penetrated a women while being senator, also, have you seen his pictures sniffing women's hairs and feeling little girls' faces? 8 Cases of sexual harassment alleged against him.

6.Controlled mass media
Who was the spear head to monopolizing all the media company into 6 major companies under Clinton... Oh yea Biden

7. Obsession w/ national security
Chelsea Manning was tortured under Obama/Biden, we're still trying extradite and kill Assange and Snowden is in Russia. The fucking patriot act is still active even after 8 fucking years of Obama/Biden. Oh yea, guess who wrote the patriot act and bragged about it?

9. Corporate power is protected
The banks were bailed out while 5.1 million families lost their homes, made Bush tax cut permenant, and provided a corporate giveaway called Obama-care. No one arrested for the 2008 crash business as usual.

10. Labor power is suppressed
Do I really need to explain this one???

12. Obsession with Crime and Punihsment
He wrote the crime bill
3 strikes Amplified the war on drugs
Militarized the police Separated migrant children from families as a deterren

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Hunter Biden made 50k a month for a Ukrainian energy company after Biden used his executive power to get rid of the prosecutor, and armed literal nazis. His sons med bills were over 1m and Obama paid for it while being against M4A.

14. Fraudulent Elections
2020 primary
And if Biden loses I'm sure he'll say Russia or the thing you know the thing (China interfered)

Edited September 7, 2020 by SunCat

[Opo]

@SunCat U missed the first one. 

[Leo Gura]

@SunCat Bahahahaha...

[SunCat]

@Leo Gura Hilarious, right? I got the same reaction when I told Trump supporters that Trump is a fascist.

Ignorance is bliss. You're laughing as the propaganda machine by MSNBC and TYT brainwashes you and confirms your bias and Trump Derrangement Syndrome. Fox News for liberals like yourself.

Edited September 9, 2020 by SunCat

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, SunCat said:

@Leo Gura Hilarious, right? I got the same reaction when I told Trump supporters that Trump is a fascist.

Ignorance is bliss. You're laughing as the propaganda machine by MSNBC and TYT brainwashes you and confirms your bias and Trump Derrangement Syndrome. Fox News for liberals like yourself.

Your examples are the epitome of forcing a square peg into a round hole.

[SunCat]

@Carl-Richard Can you explain how?

[Opo]

7 minutes ago, SunCat said:

@Carl-Richard Can you explain how?

Basically this 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[SunCat]

@Opo How is that occurring in the examples I provided?

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, SunCat said:

@Carl-Richard Can you explain how?

If I just claimed that your entire list is an attempt at squaring a hole, don't you think that you will do the same with my rebuttal?

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, SunCat said:

How is that occurring in the examples I provided?

You are not considering degrees

[SunCat]

@Forestluv For sure, theres a spectrum. Whether Biden and Trump are significantly far apart in that spectrum is another discussion.

[Forestluv]

30 minutes ago, SunCat said:

@Forestluv For sure, theres a spectrum. Whether Biden and Trump are significantly far apart in that spectrum is another discussion.

It is one thing to say there is a spectrum. It is another thing to contextualize one's ideas within a spectrum with distinctions. I don't think you are doing that when labeling Biden as a fascist and saying Biden and Trump are close. This is just one perspective. Personally, I see neoliberals as extremely problematic. I could literally spend a hundred hours talking about how problematic they are. Yet Trump and the alt-right are on another level of problematic. To me, it's wisest to first remove Trump and then go after Biden. For those on the left, I don't think allowing Trump another 4 years is the best strategy. There is a chance that it causes massive structural collapse that could benefit the left, yet the chance is relatively low and the cost would be extremely high, imo. 

This is pretty much the position of people like AOC, Nina Turner and Cornel West. I would call it pragmatic democratic socialism. There are those further to the left like Ryan Knight making the argument to vote Green and create a new Peoples Party. I agree with the goal - yet don't think it's the best strategy. During the primary, I supported Bernie and hoped for meaningful structural change. Yet when Bernie lost, I shifted toward survival, pragmatic, incremental mode. 

[SunCat]

@Forestluv On the surface, it seems like Biden is worse than Trump. Trump's vulgarity makes the appearance even worse. Biden's platform on his website makes it seem like he is better, but in the end, he will not do anything to mitigate the growing income inequality and idt I need to preach to the quire about what he will not do and his record. 

Biden will serve his corporate donors, not the people, and he was instrumental in installing the harmful policies we have today. After Obama, the system got worse and we got Trump. Obama said himself that if this were the 1980s he'd be considered a moderate Republican. The only thing that changed between Obama and Trump was the face. Drone strikes increased, but we didn't get into any new wars. 

What makes you think Biden will listen to us more than Trump would? Trump just said recently he plans to pull troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan and he was more eager to pass free healthcare to covid patients than Biden and the Democrats. And after Biden, what do you think will come next if the corporations that protect elections will have more power to continue to rig elections? Telecom and Big Tech will be more powerful in censoring our info. Our military and economic imperialism will proceed and lead to more environmental exacerbation. The prison and police system will continue with the author of the Crime Bill and the top cop in charge. We could have 8 more years of Kamala and then 8 years of a Tom Cotton or Ted Cruz as president.

We have to stop relying solely on electoral politics. We need to go beyond that. Still vote downballot for progressives. But we need to organize, protest  and inform, not sit every 4 years for more worse options. The lesser of 2 evils strategy is why we are here. We have to stop rewarding bad behavior with our votes. We don't have time.

[Gidiot]

@Forestluv wait can you clarify, isnt it a great idea to form a major third party that could be nationally viable? regardless of whether or not you vote for biden. I mean i think there is a pretty good chance that the progressive dems could defect and that would just be huge on its own. the dem party has many loyalists but i feel like that number is shrinking, i could be wrong, but its awfuly hard to believe that it could be taken over anytime soon, maybe in decades but peoples party has a very good infrastructure that i have investigated (im part of the movement and the founding convention hopefully). 

 

i agree with leo and ryan knight, both are right, you should vote your conscience but also electing biden isnt an endorsement of biden for most of the people to the left of him. we will fight him too - David doel says who would you rather fight, I think the best strategy is to vote harm reduction and to also apply pressure with third parties and dem primaries...do we agree? haha

 

the green party turns a lot of people off because it has a stink too it. also a new party has a different brand and opportunity and energy.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Gidiot

[Gidiot]

@SunCat "We have to stop rewarding bad behavior with our votes. We don't have time. " 

 voting trump will not solve this, most people to the left of biden are already following your advice (me). my reps are all for progressive policies and we are voting out susan collins soon so there will be no pro trump mitch mcconnel majority. people on this forum arent about electoral politics either, from what ive read most see it as a harm reduction vote. doesnt mean you sit on your heels. 

 

obama didnt have the same pressure that biden will have if elected, and you know this. christ bernie was even getting pressured and still is.

[SunCat]

5 hours ago, Gidiot said:

@SunCat  

obama didnt have the same pressure that biden will have if elected, and you know this. christ bernie was even getting pressured and still is.

This is a great point. The only downside to it is that the machine will be mlre powerful and put maximum pressure to try to get Kamala as president for 8 years. She was the chosen one and had the most Clinton staffers and the most donations from billionaires. Kamala is dangerous. And after the country gets destroyed even more under her reign, conservatives and conservative leaning independents and the Obama->Trump Dems will likely vote for a Tom Cotton or Ted Cruz. The oligarchy wins either way as we continue to have these debates. 

If in my examples I had replaced Biden's name with Trump, people like Leo would've ate it up and agreed that Trump is fascist. Many people in this forum have partisan blinders on and a big reason for that is a lack of knowledge of Biden's and the Democrats' record.

Trump being bad is obvious. The preaching to the quire is so unnecessary. What is NOT obvious and what many of you do not understand because of the heavy consumption of outlets like TYT and MSNBC is the record of Democrats and how they are just as fascist as the Republicans. Their foreign policy is indistinguishable. Their economic policy is also indistinguishable. The only thing that's different about them is optics. They work for the same damn 1% that donates money to them. Its all professional wrestling. Its a shame that MSNBC isn't held to the same standard as Fox News just because Fox News is pro-Trump. MSNBC is also pro-Trump because it's great for their ratings, they applaud his military interventions and war mongering (calling it "presidential"), they put pressure on Trump to increase tensions with Russia, and they spread McCarthy conspiracy theories and russophobia with no evidence and undisclosed intelligence asset guests. 

Biden hasn't listened to you in 40 years and he isnt even listening to you now BEFORE even getting your vote. He won't even give us medicare for all during a pandemic, something even right-wing developed countries have.

[Opo]

57 minutes ago, SunCat said:

This is a great point. The only downside to it is that the machine will be mlre powerful and put maximum pressure to try to get Kamala as president for 8 years. She was the chosen one and had the most Clinton staffers and the most donations from billionaires. Kamala is dangerous. And after the country gets destroyed even more under her reign, conservatives and conservative leaning independents and the Obama->Trump Dems will likely vote for a Tom Cotton or Ted Cruz. The oligarchy wins either way as we continue to have these debates. 

If in my examples I had replaced Biden's name with Trump, people like Leo would've ate it up and agreed that Trump is fascist. Many people in this forum have partisan blinders on and a big reason for that is a lack of knowledge of Biden's and the Democrats' record.

Trump being bad is obvious. The preaching to the quire is so unnecessary. What is NOT obvious and what many of you do not understand because of the heavy consumption of outlets like TYT and MSNBC is the record of Democrats and how they are just as fascist as the Republicans. Their foreign policy is indistinguishable. Their economic policy is also indistinguishable. The only thing that's different about them is optics. They work for the same damn 1% that donates money to them. Its all professional wrestling. Its a shame that MSNBC isn't held to the same standard as Fox News just because Fox News is pro-Trump. MSNBC is also pro-Trump because it's great for their ratings, they applaud his military interventions and war mongering (calling it "presidential"), they put pressure on Trump to increase tensions with Russia, and they spread McCarthy conspiracy theories and russophobia with no evidence and undisclosed intelligence asset guests. 

Biden hasn't listened to you in 40 years and he isnt even listening to you now BEFORE even getting your vote. He won't even give us medicare for all during a pandemic, something even right-wing developed countries have.

So many wrong things here.

But I guess it's pointless trying to explain.