Rising - Getting Worse and Worse

[Carl-Richard]

10 minutes ago, Extreme Z7 said:

So socialists are technically neo-neo-neo-neo-cons. Language is strange.

Not really.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Extreme Z7 said:

So socialists are technically neo-neo-neo-neo-cons. Language is strange.

Today's socialists are neo-marxists, or neo-comms

[Scholar]

On 29.8.2020 at 5:46 PM, Forestluv said:

Being open-minded, nuanced and contemplative takes a lot of work and can be uncomfortable. Many minds like things cu-and-try. It is easy and provides grounding. Many minds don’t like uncertainty, ambiguity or paradox. And the mind also creates a strong attachment/identification to an ideology. Then the seeking begins. Confirmation of that ideology / identity is like a drug and the mind becomes addicted. The news media plays into this and benefits. Yet there are other media outlets are beginning to explore nuances - for example shows go into the pros and cons of certain phenomena like psychedelics. Yet it’s much harder on topics people are highly attached/identified that they see as personally threatening - such as politics, religion, science. We don’t see many people getting ideological about diapers, sunsets and paper clips. 

We have multiple factors at play that polarize people in the free thinking countries:

Technological advancements like social media, adaptive algorythms and artificial intelligence are capable of exploiting the human mind to direct behaviour in self-serving ways. Today attention is one of the most lucrative resources, which is why these technologies are manipulating and controlling attention. The human mind is designed to give most attention to threats to it's own identity, which is why these technologies naturally will increase fear-based identities. This is seen in conspiracy theories and politics, the new world views emerging will be completely based in fear, leading to real world violence and conflict, as identities will increasingly feel a threat to their own survival. Politics becomes about avoiding threats, not about progress and oppurtunities for growth. Compassion is limited to the own self-construct, and increasingly anything viewed as threat to the identity will be viewed as foreign entity, less deserving of compassion than ones own ingroup. Identities will be based around victimhood and blame, rational discourse will become increasingly difficult due to world views becoming less and less compatible. Different value systems will emerge, which will increasingly fight for dominance. Dominance means survival, violence is justified to achieve survival. Egoic attachments and egoic biases will increase, rather than decrease. Emotions will be the driver of action, rather than reason.

The evolutionary legacy of homo sapiens is the blueprint for the self-emerging meta-structures of the information revolution. The directionlessness of the free market economy and free thinking democracy leave a power-vacuum that will be filled by the primitive, emotion-driven mind, leaving an evolutionary advantage for societies which are structured in more authoritarian ways.

Attention is fundamental to the direction of any society. For thousands of years natural selective pressures have created systems which guided our attention to be capable of structuring ever increasingly complex and robust societies. The overcoming of these selective pressures allowed us to free our attention. We let go of ideas which were the fundamental building blocks of our society, but now we were on our own. We spend countless hours every day, either serving the system, or serving ourselves. We either contribute to the market, or we consume from the market.

Without direction, without meaning, all we can create is our own meanings. And how we create this meaning is derived from our legacy. We play videogames, designed to induce chemicals which were previously benefitial to our survival. We gather in social groups because it was benefitial to our survival. We are structuring our society in a way to satisfied our primitive minds. One of the ways we do so is by creating new world views which give us meaning. And what gives us most meaning is that which we fear, precisely because it was always most benefitial to our survival.

 

The meaninglessness of our existence is now obvious to us, because we are not so occupied with survival anymore. The first time in all of evolutionary history, a species must determine it's own future, it's own trajectory, it's own meaning. But in what do we ground this new meaning? How do we determine it, without becoming slaves of our own legacy? And how do we determine it if nobody is aware of any of this even taking place? What forces will determine the trajectory of our society?

 

Right now western society is wasting a lot of it's attention on tasks that serve no purpose outside of satisfying the human mind. We waste time socializing, playing video games, watching pornography, entertaining and educating ourselves. We do not do this for progress, but because our brains like to feel good. How will we structure our society, if all we seek is our own individual pleasures?

The solution to this problem is suffering. Suffering on such a grand scale that we will have no other choice but to adopt new meaning. And this suffering will inevitably be provided by nature. The destruction of this planet will have consequences, and it is far too late to do anything about that. We have lived as the most privileged generation in all of the history of this planet. This is not the norm, and suffering will come like a flood, on a scale so unimaginable that many people will be unable to cope with it.

 

This is why you will fear the Love of God, because this is the Love of God. You are turning a blind eye to what is going on right infront of your eyes. Right now, there are billions of animals living an existence so nightmarish and miserable that your mind would deteriorate even if you had to spend a week in that kind of state. And in Gods eyes, there is no difference whatsoever between you and that animal. He has no problem making you suffer for benefit of evolution. If you can see past your own fear and accept the current state of the world, you will understand that what awaits us has no quick fix solution. Infact, what awaits us is the very solution to the problems we are currently dealing with.

 

We have become so arrogant and delusional that we cannot even imagine what it means to fight for our survival, or to be enslaved.

 

 

If only you had expanded your identity, you would have known this decades ago. The suffering homo sapiens is causing to it's brothers and sister is on an unimaginable scale. Right now, we are the destroyer of worlds, the bringer of death. We have enslaved, killed and eradicated others on such a grand scale, to expect that we will get away with this as if nothing happened is completely and utterly delusional. The world is far too interconnected for anyone to get away with such a thing.

You do not care about any of this fundamentally because your identity is so limited and contrived that you cannot see that basically the "apocalypse" is already in full process. We are already suffering on an unimaginable scale. All you did was call those who suffer "them", so to blind yourself from it. We not only genocide our brothers and sisters living in the trees and the oceans, we breed billions of them in hell-like conditions and then kill all of them with a complete disregard for their suffering.

 

This is the Love of God, and it will apply to you aswell.

[SunCat]

On 8/26/2020 at 11:06 PM, louhad said:

I think Kyle is more fair than Jimmy and Krystal. He even said he would vote for Joe and sobered up after the protesting started and trump went cray. 

Cracking down on protestors in the US is not ok but the US doing it in under countries is? Also Biden was an architect in creating this police state with his Crime Bill and militirizing the police. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/obama-police-militarization_n_3566478 Why vote for the guy responsible in playing a key role in creating this system that gave us Trump? So he can make it worse and then we have a more competent Trump like Tom Cotton?

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, SunCat said:

Cracking down on protestors in the US is not ok but the US doing it in under countries is? Also Biden was an architect in creating this police state with his Crime Bill and militirizing the police. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/obama-police-militarization_n_3566478 Why vote for the guy responsible in playing a key role in creating this system that gave us Trump? So he can make it worse and then we have a more competent Trump like Tom Cotton?

If all the U.S. problems are placed on the neoliberals and we all realize they are incapable, I wouldn't assume regression back to a Trump-like president. That is certainly possible, yet it is also possible that a Bernie-like progressive rises to the top. 

[SunCat]

@Forestluv It's hard to say that another Bernie will rise again in the Democratic party any time soon, especially if Biden wins and then Harris takes over for 4-8 or even 12 years of D presidency.  I see the point that you are making, but many poor conservatives and independents may never put their trust in a Democrat again.

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, SunCat said:

@Forestluv It's hard to say that another Bernie will rise again in the Democratic party any time soon, especially if Biden wins and then Harris takes over for 4-8 or even 12 years of D presidency.  I see the point that you are making, but many poor conservatives and independents may never put their trust in a Democrat again.

There are different forms of Democrats. The major distinction is between progressives (democratic socialists) vs. neoliberals. In the US they are both called "Democrat", yet in Europe they would be too separate political parties. People could lose trust in neoliberals and recognize progressives are very different (as I have). If so, there could be a shift of power such that the progressives control the Dem. party. This would completely change the party platform - e.g. toward AOC type. Another possibility is that a new viable 3rd party rises for real and gains power.

These massive shifts are rare in the U.S., yet it looks like the crises are becoming so severe that a major shift can happen. Imagine tens of millions of evicted people sitting homeless on one side of the street looking at empty apartments / homes on the other side of the street while billionaires get richer. That is unsustainable. 

[SunCat]

@Forestluv I agree that there is a (probably exponential?) rise in consciousness. I am just worried that the elites and propaganda machine will be too powerful to fight against as they continue to grow more powerful under more neoliberalism. People's level of collective consciousness may not be high enough for them to realize that some victories are not real victories. 

[Bodigger]

@Forestluv @SunCat  Are you saying that the rioters, as well as the protesters, are of higher consciousness?

[Forestluv]

57 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

@Forestluv @SunCat  Are you saying that the rioters, as well as the protesters, are of higher consciousness?

In theoretical terms of consciousness evolution, I would not place riots themselves at a high level - yet I can see the underlying causes that drive them. I would put protestors able to see underlying inequalities / injustices in society and are protesting for a more equal / just society of inclusion and diversity to be at a relatively high conscious level by today’s standards. Those that have a binary “law and order” and “us vs them” mindset that want to use force to inhibit addressing those underlying issues would be at a relatively lower conscious level, imo.

A level higher consciousness can see systemically how a history of systemic racism, corporate plutocracy, exploitation, corruption, wealth inequality, disproportionate power dynamics, biased judicial systems, biased laws / enforcement / accountability and barriers to social advancement are all underlying and contributing to the social conflict seen today. Yet it’s easier to take a systemic meta view when one is in an ivory tower. It’s much more difficult to see when one is immersed within those dynamics and fighting for their survival. 

 

[Bodigger]

10 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

In theoretical terms of consciousness evolution, I would not place riots themselves at a high level - yet I can see the underlying causes that drive them. I would put protestors able to see underlying inequalities / injustices in society and are protesting for a more equal / just society of inclusion and diversity to be at a relatively high conscious level by today’s standards. Those that have a binary “law and order” and “us vs them” mindset that want to use force to inhibit addressing those underlying issues would be at a relatively lower conscious level, imo.

Without "Law and Order", protest and dissent would not exist.

11 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

A level higher consciousness can see systemically how a history of systemic racism, corporate plutocracy, exploitation, corruption, wealth inequality, disproportionate power dynamics, biased judicial systems, biased laws / enforcement / accountability and barriers to social advancement are all underlying and contributing to the social conflict seen today. Yet it’s easier to take a systemic meta view when one is in an ivory tower. It’s much more difficult to see when one is immersed within those dynamics and fighting for their survival. 

This person (Matt Banta) came from an ivory tower, is a member of Antifa, and was captured in Green Bay, Wisconsin with a flame thrower.  Can you share your thoughts on what this individual may be thinking on a consciousness level?  Or would it be more of the same as you have written.

 

[Forestluv]

49 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

Without "Law and Order", protest and dissent would not exist.

I did not say laws and order has no value in a society and I am not suggesting that a lawless society is superior. It is context dependent. Throughout history there have been unjust laws and protests. The suffrage movement protested the unjust law that women cannot vote. However, there are also laws that have value for societies. And there are issues of whether laws are being fairly enforced and accountability.

49 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

This person (Matt Banta) came from an ivory tower, is a member of Antifa, and was captured in Green Bay, Wisconsin with a flame thrower.  Can you share your thoughts on what this individual may be thinking on a consciousness level?  Or would it be more of the same as you have written.

 

That is not what I mean by taking a meta view from an Ivory Tower. An example would be an academic that lives in comfort and security. He has the luxury of viewing things systemically. If we put that academic in the forests of Columbia where he is threatened by bandits and mafia, it would be much harder for him to view things in the bigger picture since he would be pre-occupied with survival.

Yet having financial stability is insufficient. Someone could be raised in financially stable environment yet conditioned to believe in white supremacy. They  could be be a frustrated incel bullied at school and become involved in a gang or online white supremacy group, which contributes to unhealthy expressions of violence. This of course would not be considered a higher consciousness in most models.

A better example would be someone raised in an environment in which the “other” was not demonized and not seen as a threat. Rather, an environment in which various perspectives are considered. Perhaps this person has traveled and had many discussions with people from different walks of life. In doing so, they have a better understanding of where people are coming from and can see inequalities and injustices. Consider a white person that temporarily lives in a predominately black poor urban area and sees firsthand the biased injustices and can see how policing and the justice system cannot be fully trusted by some people. Or a white person that gets into a relationship with a black person and becomes aware of racism because they are now experiencing it and observing it. It now becomes undeniable. 

To me, you seem to be demonizing the movement broadly as “rioters, Antifa, terrorists, violent” etc and don’t seem open to acknowledging and considering legitimate inequalities and injustices that underly and drive the social unrest. 

How could we have a discussion about the causes of climate change and possible solutions with someone that denies climate change exists and thinks all environmentalists are dangerous terrorists?

[Bodigger]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

 To me, you seem to be demonizing the movement broadly as “rioters, Antifa, terrorists, violent” etc and don’t seem open to acknowledging and considering legitimate inequalities and injustices that underly and drive the social unrest. 

I am trying to understand how people can destroy things, verbally and physically harm others, and be considered at a higher consciousness.  IMO, this isn't anywhere near a higher consciousness level.  Perhaps I just don't understand because of the consciousness level I am at, but I am not looking to demonize anyone, so please don't say that I am.  I have been working on things for a while now, and the more work I do, the more I feel apart from you all.  I do Love you all.

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

I am trying to understand how people can destroy things, verbally and physically harm others, and be considered at a higher consciousness.  IMO, this isn't anywhere near a higher consciousness level.  Perhaps I just don't understand because of the consciousness level I am at, but I am not looking to demonize anyone, so please don't say that I am.  I have been working on things for a while now, and the more work I do, the more I feel apart from you all.  I do Love you all.

Imagine what might influence someone to destroy things verbally and physically. Imagine someone who has been abused and silenced. Can you see how they might lash out?

In my view, it is not the destroying things and physical harm that is higher consciousness. I don’t know anyone who is saying that. Rather, I would consider someone like Cornel West at a relatively high level of consciousness. He is aware of inequalities and injustices. He can see nuances about personal responsibility and corrupt systemic problems. He can see racial biases, yet can also see how poor white people are also getting screwed over in a corrupt plutocracy of extreme wealth inequality. Not everyone speaking out against inequalities and injustices is doing so by destroying things. I’m speaking out against inequalities and injustices - and I haven’t destroyed a single thing. 

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Bodigger said:

I am trying to understand how people can destroy things, verbally and physically harm others, and be considered at a higher consciousness.  IMO, this isn't anywhere near a higher consciousness level.  Perhaps I just don't understand because of the consciousness level I am at, but I am not looking to demonize anyone, so please don't say that I am.  I have been working on things for a while now, and the more work I do, the more I feel apart from you all.  I do Love you all.

When the society treats some of its citizens with the equivalent level of oppression of a Stage Red dictatorship, then you should expect these people to act accordingly. If you're pushed to your limits and threatened for your life, even as a high consciousness individual, you will regress down to the appropriate stage and address the issues from that place. High consciousness will flourish in high consciousness environments, and we're addressing the problem of the environment being unequal.

[Leo Gura]

On 9/2/2020 at 4:48 PM, SunCat said:

Also Biden was an architect in creating this police state with his Crime Bill and militirizing the police.

It's quite silly to blame the US police system on Biden. This system is so huge it is outside of any one politician's control. The 90's was a different time. Everyone was into strong policing back then. You cannot retroactively project 2020 standards on 90's politics.

Quote

Why vote for the guy responsible in playing a key role in creating this system that gave us Trump?

Because he's much better than Trump.

It's like you're saying, "This guy was friendly to the rapist, so it would be unacceptable to pick him. Instead, let's pick the rapist."

If you are truly concerned about the raping of America, Biden is much better than Trump. Fascists will rape the country much worse than Neoliberals ever will, despite what progressives will have you believe.

On 9/2/2020 at 5:50 PM, SunCat said:

@Forestluv It's hard to say that another Bernie will rise again in the Democratic party any time soon, especially if Biden wins and then Harris takes over for 4-8 or even 12 years of D presidency.

I would make the opposite point. The chances now are better than ever of a new Obama or Clinton -like, but progressive, leader to emerge. I think we'll see exactly that in the next 8 to 16 years. It will happen regardless of whether Trump wins or Biden wins. In both cases people are going to see that neither conservativism nor neoliberalism are working. And they will be eager for something new. Someone like Bernie but with a younger, more charismatic face, and a fighter.

The function of Bernie was not to win the Presidency. The function of Bernie was to pave the way for a new, younger, charismatic progressive leader in the next 5 to 20 years.

Quote

I see the point that you are making, but many poor conservatives and independents may never put their trust in a Democrat again.

Again, you say this while Trump and Republicans are in power. It's an absurd double-standard.

It is not the Democrat's job to convert deplorable, closedminded conservatives who will be voting for Trumpist-like candidates no matter what Dems do.

[Bodigger]

21 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

When the society treats some of its citizens with the equivalent level of oppression of a Stage Red dictatorship, then you should expect these people to act accordingly. If you're pushed to your limits and threatened for your life, even as a high consciousness individual, you will regress down to the appropriate stage and address the issues from that place. High consciousness will flourish in high consciousness environments, and we're addressing the problem of the environment being unequal.

So if we are at a higher consciousness and we are threatened, it is natural for us to regress our behavior, or is this a conscious choice we make to serve our ego?

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Bodigger said:

So if we are at a higher consciousness and we are threatened, it is natural for us to regress our behavior, or is this a conscious choice we make to serve our ego?

No difference.

[Bodigger]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

No difference.

I don't think I would consciously choose to go toward a lower consciousness level after working so hard to get where I am.  Nor do I think God expects this of me.  I would think raising the level of consciousness of Self and helping others do the same is more beneficial.

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

I don't think I would consciously choose to go toward a lower consciousness level after working so hard to get where I am.  Nor do I think God expects this of me.  I would think raising the level of consciousness of Self and helping others do the same is more beneficial.

I hope you will remain that privileged for the rest of your life, because when someone threatens you for your life, you'll be in deep trouble.