Spiral Dynamics - Transcend and Include?

[Flyboy]

I have a question for any Spiral Wizards, but specifically would love @Leo Gura's take.

How does Spiral Dynamics think about those who are at a relatively higher stage but don't have the "foundation" of lower stages?

An example of this would be young liberals in college who are devoutly Green, but grew up as such and never really understood or included the key developments of Red, Blue, and Orange.

Is this like swiss cheese Green?  Fake Green?  Unhinged Green?  This phenomenon seems quite common, and I'm wondering how to think about it.

[Girzo]

If they are in college, they have had already a lot of time in childhood and teenage years to develop.

I would be cautious about judging that they don't have the skills and understandings of previous levels, they probably do, but just don't use them often.

Green without previous stages integrated is like an unicorn, not a rule.

That previous stages get more and more shallow is a natural tendency I think, as society progresses those ways of looking at the world get less and less relevant. In a few decades we won't have that many stage Green college kids, because they will be stage Yellow systemic thinkers by that age.

[Guest SirVladimir]

Why would you specifically love Leo's take? Don't judge answers by whom they were written. It easily reeks of bias.

39 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

but grew up as such and never really understood or included the key developments of Red, Blue, and Orange.

Well, liberalism is not separate from the model. It's an invention of a certain stage. @Girzo made a wonderful point about previous stages becoming less relevant. And that's the beauty of evolution. In a couple hundred years, society will have advanced and the new heights will be considered standard. Children will be Turquoise from a very young age thanks to perfected education. The vMEMES are encoded into your God's DNA, so worry not if life circumstances regress. The previous stages will automatically activate in response. 

[Michal__]

1 hour ago, Flyboy said:

I have a question for any Spiral Wizards, but specifically would love @Leo Gura's take.

How does Spiral Dynamics think about those who are at a relatively higher stage but don't have the "foundation" of lower stages?

An example of this would be young liberals in college who are devoutly Green, but grew up as such and never really understood or included the key developments of Red, Blue, and Orange.

Is this like swiss cheese Green?  Fake Green?  Unhinged Green?  This phenomenon seems quite common, and I'm wondering how to think about it.

They have been red, blue and orange when they were young. (5-10 y.o. - red, Blue; orange till they were 16-18). You make a mistake by comparing them to adults stuck in red and blue. These adults are the equivalent of being stuck in the 6th grade.

Getting triggered by stages below ≠ stages not integrated.

[nitramadas]

1 hour ago, SirVladimir said:

Why would you specifically love Leo's take? Don't judge answers by whom they were written. It easily reeks of bias.

Because he's been watching Leo's videos.  Anyone who's been watching them has a bit of Leo inside them.  ; )  It's natural to prefer a response from someone you know, even if they don't know you back..

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In a couple hundred years, society will have advanced and the new heights will be considered standard. Children will be Turquoise from a very young age thanks to perfected education.

This I find very unclear about SD.  Most sources, including Leo, say that you must go through all the stages first.  Noone can ever skip stages, contrary to what you seem to suggest.  If you meant they'd just go through the stages that fast because of education, that also seems likely wrong.  Leo also seems to believe that education will bring about faster progress.  ime, education is definitely a big factor, and can speed up progress as long as the student is receptive to the ideas, but even if you have the absolute worst education, that's in no way worse for you in terms of spiritual progress than an education from the best teachers.  Challenges can, and do, often act  as catalysts for progress.   The perfect education may involve getting violently beaten up and raped on a daily basis, lol.  May.  Overcoming such a challenge, for someone capable, may be perfect.  Also, you may not realize, but external motivation kills internal motivation.  Being told go the "right" path may cause them to do the opposite, as that immediately takes away any desire they may have generated within themselves.  

Also, a couple hundred years?  That's a bit pessimistic.   What happens when the first general AI is made, and is capable of doing in a second what would take 1000 years for 100 of the best scientists working 24/7 to do?  With neuralink, which doesn't even need GAI, education won't even be needed in any form resembling today's, for obvious reasons.  How far away are we from neuralink-type tech achieving superiority?  About ~5 years iirc accord to Elon.  Exponentially increasing in progress rate from there.   In 200, the world should look more like what people imagine it will look like in 1000 or 2000.  People are extremely bad at visualizing exponential growth, like how everyone was surprised at the growth of Corona even though they knew it's exponential.

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The vMEMES are encoded into your God's DNA, so worry not if life circumstances regress. The previous stages will automatically activate in response.

 is...  this the reason noone takes SD seriously?

Edited August 26, 2020 by nitramadas

[Guest SirVladimir]

9 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

It's natural to prefer a response from someone you know, even if they don't know you back..

That is particularly why I raised the question. You would not want to inherit dogma. Just become mindful of this. 

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No one can ever skip stages, contrary to what you seem to suggest.

If you scrutinize that statement very closely, you will realize it does not hold up logically to what I said.

I have never written about skipping stages. 

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If you meant they'd just go through the stages that fast because of education, that also seems likely wrong.

It seems wrong, instead of being wrong. I am glad you stated it in that way. The children of tomorrow will be intellectual gods compared to the men of today. As it has always been. As society improves, Yellow and Turquoise will be taken for granted. Completely for granted. Today's life will be seen as barbaric. Just like we see the life of yesterday.

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is...  this the reason no one takes SD seriously?

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Is this like swiss cheese Green?  Fake Green?  Unhinged Green?  This phenomenon seems quite common, and I'm wondering how to think about it.

I explain it to myself like this:

1) The Green value system can easily be turned into an ideology without properly building up to it. You can just get programmed by the value system via your environment without growing into it yourself through inner work. This creates a flakey veneer of Green. In this case it might be a Green ideology which is almost as though adopted by stage Blue like people.

2) Green is a deep stage with lots to master and integrate. Most people who are "Green" aren't solid Green. They are dabblers.

3) It's easy to talk Green and believe Green while not having a solid foundation in Blue & Orange because someone else pays your bills. To truly lock down Green requires going off on your own and building a quality life. Which will necessitate exploration and mastery of Blue and Orange. I think many college kids are missing this.

[Flyboy]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I explain it to myself like this:

1) The Green value system can easily be turned into an ideology without properly building up to it. You can just get programmed by the value system via your environment without growing into it yourself through inner work. This creates a flakey veneer of Green. In this case it might be a Green ideology which is almost as though adopted by stage Blue like people.

2) Green is a deep stage with lots to master and integrate. Most people who are "Green" aren't solid Green. They are dabblers.

3) It's easy to talk Green and believe Green while not having a solid foundation in Blue & Orange because someone else pays your bills. To truly lock down Green requires going off on your own and building a quality life. Which will necessitate exploration and mastery of Blue and Orange. I think many college kids are missing this.

Great explanation, thanks!

To those suggesting stages can be done "quickly" I personally think there is a limit.  I idolized Red, was raised Blue, went through an existential crisis to get to Orange in college and remained for 10 years after, was dragged through Green when I moved out East through school and friends and travel, and finally feel I'm really entering Yellow through this work here (and some psychedelics!).  Each of these stages was long and significant and challenging to work through, despite being intelligent and having "truth" as a primary motivation from a young age.  But the benefit is that I feel like I've truly "been there" for Blue, Orange, and Green.  Still, I find in my own personal development that I'm all the way back integrating PURPLE as I work to improve my family relationships.  Being truly, solidly at a high stage is a very significant thing, I think.

[Leo Gura]

@Flyboy Yeah, and you'll find that it's even worse than that. You'll find that you still have important lessons to integrate from Blue, Orange, and Green.

[EternalForest]

Not a Spiral Wizard quite yet (many years from reaching Yellow), but people aren't generally just one stage. Someone can have elements of many stages integrated into who they are. You can be Stage Green in some ways and Stage Blue in others. Further, someone at Stage Green cannot enter Yellow without integrating all the previous stages first. Transcending is one thing, but it's including that presents the true challenge.

[Aimblack]

@Leo Gura  But that's where the fun is ! That is the reason why it's not only good but necessary for all stages to exist.