Having A Baby

[Orange]

Having a baby is selfish because the baby never asked to come on this planet and will suffer as a human identity for a while, maybe for a whole life when it could have just not being born and stayed instead in the"  emptiness "before birth. Yes or no?

 

Also, the majority of parents will say that having a baby is a signature of love etc etc. But ultimately, what is the fundamental reason people have a baby? Instinct? Curiosity (ie.I wonder what growing a human in my body feels like or: I wonder how a human develops, let's make one to observe on the spot) ? Culture? Genuine love ( for a human you don't even know yet, love for a non existent object when you think about it) ? What else....selfishness ( ie. When he/ she grows up they can take care of me, emotionally, financialy etc)? 

 

 

For me at least I believe it is ultimately instinct. Nothing else. But I'm curious about your opinions.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Orange

[Ayla]

Look into the probability of two cells combining and merging into a new form that develops into a viable human baby. How many million of conditions have to be there? Can you see the magic in that? If so, who makes the magic? Or what?

if you want to go even deeper, is the desire that led to produce that baby anything else than magic? 

if you want to go to the other side also.. When that baby is born, does it have any isues like "selfishness, unworthiness, suffering"? 

:)

[Orange]

3 minutes ago, Ayla said:

Look into the probability of two cells combining and merging into a new form that develops into a viable human baby. How many million of conditions have to be there? Can you see the magic in that? If so, who makes the magic? Or what?

 

 

Life I guess. Random evolution. 

3 minutes ago, Ayla said:

if you want to go even deeper, is the desire that led to produce that baby anything else than magic? 

I don't know, I think it's a soup of feel good hormones that make us believe it's magic. 

3 minutes ago, Ayla said:

if you want to go to the other side also.. When that baby is born, does it have any isues like "selfishness, unworthiness, suffering"? 

And no, they don't.  But as they grow up they will.

[egoeimai]

Well If you want my opinion   Your point of view (first part) it doesnt make sense. If women doesnt get pregnant and give births,: we :wont be no longer on this planet and chat on this forum.

Why??????? Because this is how nature is. 

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by popi
mistakes. always

[Wouter]

I also think it is an instinct to want to have children. I think all the things we want are just instinct. The only things our notions of "good" and "bad" are grounded in is instinct (again, just in my opinin). So yeah I kind of agree.

But it's still magic that it's possible for cells to combine and produce "life" wathever that may be, right?

 

[Frogfucius]

57 minutes ago, Orange said:

Having a baby is selfish because the baby never asked to come on this planet and will suffer as a human identity for a while, maybe for a whole life when it could have just not being born and stayed instead in the"  emptiness "before birth. Yes or no?

 

Also, the majority of parents will say that having a baby is a signature of love etc etc. But ultimately, what is the fundamental reason people have a baby? Instinct? Curiosity (ie.I wonder what growing a human in my body feels like or: I wonder how a human develops, let's make one to observe on the spot) ? Culture? Genuine love ( for a human you don't even know yet, love for a non existent object when you think about it) ? What else....selfishness ( ie. When he/ she grows up they can take care of me, emotionally, financialy etc)? 

 

 

For me at least I believe it is ultimately instinct. Nothing else. But I'm curious about your opinions.

If emptiness is better than not being aware, then in that case, do you believe everyone is better off dead? There'd be no more suffering, right?

There is nothing good or bad about suffering. Suffering just is, and that's the way it has to be.

And yes, everything we do is 100% instinct. But we think we're in control, and we think things are inherently good or bad. It's the beautiful illusion of the mind.

[Orange]

44 minutes ago, popi said:

Well If you want my opinion   Your point of view (first part) it doesnt make sense. If women doesnt get pregnant and give births,: we :wont be no longer on this planet and chat on this forum.

Why??????? Because this is how nature is. 

 

That's not what I am adressing here. The question is not wether or not we should maintain the human species, the question is: is it selfish to bring a baby to life?

 

18 minutes ago, Frogfucius said:

If emptiness is better than not being aware, then in that case, do you believe everyone is better off dead? There'd be no more suffering, right?

 

I believe so yes; its my personal opinion. You wouldn't even know what you're missing out on because it's just emptiness. 

 

[egoeimai]

Well I do not think its selfish

[vizual]

What's wrong with selfishness? Are you scared you don't get what you want because everyone acts selfishly? Isn't that also selfish in itself?

[Orange]

18 minutes ago, vizual said:

What's wrong with selfishness? Are you scared you don't get what you want because everyone acts selfishly? Isn't that also selfish in itself?

Haha I like this one. I have had this thought before but not in this context. And yes that is selfish. Nothing wrong with it until it hurts someone/thing else no?

 

Now the baby, what do you think about that? The baby grows up and realises it never wanted to be alive in the first place.

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by Orange

[Eelco1981]

@Orange interesting question. People should be taking a very deep honest look inside their motivations here... I do think wanting to have a baby is selfish. If I look at my own (conscious and subconscious) reasons for which I had a baby

1. I wanted someone who loves me unconditionally, at least until they become teenage monsters.
2. I wanted companionship, someone to play with, someone to give love, to cuddle, to laugh about.
3. I wanted my bloodline to be continued
4. I wanted to have someone to take care of me when I get old.
5. I wanted someone that might have a better life than me, so sort of correcting the faults in my life.
6. I wanted to complete the picture society prescribes: job, house, partner, kid, dog.

Other than that I cannot come up with a logical explanation to have kids. Instinct? Oh lord my instinct works fine. Almost every night instinct calls me. But there are condoms to prevent my instinct multiplying the world population times 3.

[Orange]

2 hours ago, Eelco1981 said:

 

Other than that I cannot come up with a logical explanation to have kids. Instinct? Oh lord my instinct works fine. Almost every night instinct calls me. But there are condoms to prevent my instinct multiplying the world population times 3.

I'm jealous. The only one waiting in my bed is my pillow.

[ArabiaNytes]

Beyond science, I want to experience the unconditional love as a mother/as a family, the influence as a teacher and the joys of being surrounded by youth. I don't want to be alone when I'm old, I want to see what my own would look like and become, and I would hope for them to contribute to the fight against "evil" (meaning to be a contributing, upstanding, community citizen) because our world needs help.

We are goin to be some damn good parents! ?

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@Ayla total magic! @Orange Males and Females often wish for children long before puberty/sexual instinct...I feel like it may be a strong factor for some, not others, and that it is often most evident in conjunction with "biological clocks"...as in; the desire is beyond instinct, but as time starts to run out, instinct may become stronger. I think any of the "take care in old age" stuff, only happens with narcissistic types, of subtly, and subconsciously.

@ArabiaNytes My desire was the same. The unconditional love is amazing! I also feel there are so many destructive lemmings being raised intentionally that way, and that innovation of brilliant minds is so often squashed by society. So, I also enjoy raising a tiny force of positive change! That said, it was a tough call....because the world is so overpopulated! That's why I have been firm for decades that I would only have 1 child... 

[ArabiaNytes]

15 hours ago, Epiphany_Inspired said:

  the world is so overpopulated! That's why I have been firm for decades that I would only have 1 child... 

I cannot deny my own selfish desire to want to bare 4 children based on the world's needs...not in that way, at least. I was robbed of much family nurturing that handicapped my childhood and I want to right that wrong from within me. However, if I can't conceive, we would adopt.

[BHL_20]

On 8/11/2016 at 7:23 PM, Orange said:

Now the baby, what do you think about that? The baby grows up and realises it never wanted to be alive in the first place.

Um I think most of the world's population is glad to have been born. Don't overestimate how bad life is before enlightenment. The egoic mind causes suffering but there are still good times in life, and those good times make the suffering worth it. Especially if you have a life purpose and are doing personal development.  Personally, even when my ego has gotten out of control to the point where I thought about suicide I never regretted being born in the first place.

And since you say that we're all better off dead, what are your reasons for not killing yourself?  

[Matthew Lamot]

On 8/11/2016 at 6:20 PM, Orange said:

That's not what I am adressing here. The question is not wether or not we should maintain the human species, the question is: is it selfish to bring a baby to life?

I think, if you can be sure that you can give the child the best you can and if you want a child to make a conventional home with the right partner, then why not?

It's a chance for a person to realize an existence.  Perhaps even Self Realization (if that is their karma).

But without getting too much into SR, let's not forget that life as an individual is meaningful too, like I say under the right conditions.  

Ultimately you will never know whether it is the right thing to bring a child into the world.  If you dont mind me saying, reading your posts I would say that you personally need to do some work in getting your own purpose handled, as you seem to be an intuitive, independent thinker who is searching, looking for answers, perhaps a cultural creative?  And I dont mean to label you, this is just what I see, a deep thinker with a deep emotional being asking the "big" questions while trying to make a life with men, politics, morality.  

Is your line of questioning a moralistic one?  Natural too?  Both/and, beautifully complex and highly cognitively developed. Then there may be no real answers for you.  Just more thinking, which is fine.  This is you?

[Orange]

50 minutes ago, Matthew Lamot said:

 I would say that you personally need to do some work in getting your own purpose handled, 

 

How do I do this specifically? 

50 minutes ago, Matthew Lamot said:

 perhaps a cultural creative? 

 

I don't know what That is. 

50 minutes ago, Matthew Lamot said:

 

Is your line of questioning a moralistic one?  Natural too?  Both/and, beautifully complex and highly cognitively developed. Then there may be no real answers for you.  Just more thinking, which is fine.  This is you?

Thinking is me yes. As it is everybody else here I suppose. 

 

5 hours ago, BHL_20 said:

 

And since you say that we're all better off dead, what are your reasons for not killing yourself?  

I need to finish my thesis. 

[Harvey]

@Orange  No absolutely isnt selfish even its the best way to practice unselfish love, caring you do everything for the baby even without expecting or getting any benefit from it as i said in my opinion it is unselfish God love i think its the best way to start control our ego do the good things to help others.  

[Orange]

@Harvey yes that is one side of argument. Although I'm not sure about the "without expecting or getting any benefit" because from the answers I've read so far and the people i talk to, parents and future parents are in fact unconsciously or consciously expecting something in return: unconditional love, future companionship when they will be old etc.

Would you still have a kid if you knew he/she would turn out to be completely indifferent to all the care you gave them and would not love you unconditionally,  would not stay around when you are old, etc?

 

Edited August 15, 2016 by Orange