What do you think about Jordan Peterson’s political views?

[Epikur]

5 minutes ago, louhad said:

Do you form your world view off of 10 minute Ben Shapiro sjw-pwnage montages? 

This is 2+hours of Slavoj Zizek deconstructing Peterson's incoherent ramblings about shit he doesn't understand. 

Zizek is a pop philospher. He loves telling bad jokes and making fun of gulaks and he sounds terrible imho.

[Epikur]

Marxism and reality didn't work out in history imho.

[TrustTheProcess]

11 minutes ago, Epikur said:

Zizek is a pop philospher. 

lol good luck on your journey my friend

[Epikur]

@louhad

He doesn't get much love from his comrades:

Žižek’s emergence as an open right-winger is particularly significant because he has long tried to pose as an opponent of capitalism and even as a “Marxist” or a “post-Marxist.” In pseudo-left circles of intellectuals and semi-intellectuals he has been celebrated and courted accordingly. 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/08/zize-f08.html

[Opo]

@humanProcess "what is lol? I am not going too watch 2 hours debate." 

Why are you here discussing this if you don't care about truth? 

[Epikur]

2 minutes ago, Opo said:

@humanProcess "what is lol? I am not going too watch 2 hours debate." 

Why are you here discussing this if you don't care about truth? 

Very true but I would go further if you didn't study philosophy and have a PhD that means you don't care about the truth.

[Opo]

4 minutes ago, Epikur said:

Very true but I would go further if you didn't study philosophy and have a PhD that means you don't care about the truth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Edited August 25, 2020 by Opo

[Lindsay]

 

2 hours ago, louhad said:

@Opo Peterson is not popular because of how brilliant his points are. He is popular because he packages conservative world views in "intellectual" sounding language. It is like red meat for maga 15 year olds. Whether or not there are valid criticisms of him is irrelevant to 95% of his viewers. They process any criticisms of him as being sjw stuff. 

He’s popular to me because he IS brilliant. And for me he explained conservatives in a way that I was able to forgive them for their ignorance. I was born into poverty and resented Republicans.  I Used to have a hatred for them. I was a toxic stage green in my teens and early 20s. It wasn’t until I worked for a catholic republican family who treated me with kindness and generosity that I was able to include them in my “circle of trust “?. They inspired me to try to see things from their point of view. That is why I would listen with an open mind. Because their values didn’t match up with their politics. So I wanted to understand the disconnect. Jordan Peterson articulated the disconnect. So I listened to him even though he was justifying values against my own values. Because I desperately wanted to understand how the fuck did my god loving catholic clients justify their beliefs. I wish Jordan Peterson would practice what he preaches. Rule number 9, “assume that the person you are listening to night know something you don’t.” -12 rules for life by JP. 
 

Peterson is valuable as a bridge between understanding the left and right. This is not a bad thing. Like ken Wilber would say, “Transcend and include. Not Transcend and ignore.”

Slovoj Zizek was interesting in the same way. But in reverse. But good luck getting a conservative to be open minded enough to listen without judgement.
 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, humanProcess said:

How much evidence do you need about marxism?

Well, that would be answered in the debate, but of course JP backed away. JP likes to conflate the totalitarianism of the Soviet Union with the Nazis, and on top of that conflate those two with the democratic socialists of today. That is the level of analysis JP engages in, so of course he won't have a debate about it. It makes for good entertainment, the audience likes it, but it's just dismissive pseudo-intellectualism.

[Lindsay]

2 hours ago, louhad said:

Do you form your world view off of 10 minute Ben Shapiro sjw-pwnage montages? 

This is 2+hours of Slavoj Zizek deconstructing Peterson's incoherent ramblings about shit he doesn't understand. 

? This hit me. This frustration is so relatable.  When I’m interested in a subject I am willing to sit through a 2 hour speech. If someone else is excited enough to share something with me I try to devote some time to understand out of respect for the person  and to be open to what they have to say. Maybe they are not knowledgeable enough to simplify it in a few short sentences. Sometimes the complexity needs 2 hours to understand. When I share things with my brother on Facebook (I respect my brother and always looked up to him and believe he is intelligent.) he would brush me off and flat out tell me he didn’t have time to watch the 45 minute ted talk. My disappointment was incredible. It’s like people don’t have the time or the attention span to engage. It really does feel lonely when you think about complex problems and have no one to bounce ideas off of. I’m thankful to have discovered actualized.com on youtube. It opened a lot of doors and connections to people who have the attention span. 

[Epikur]

@Opo   

Funny how I could forget the answer to this question. It's so true.
 

 

[DocWatts]

While I don't have find alot that I can personally connect with in Jordan Peterson's work,  I can still see how others might find his work meaningful and relevant in their own lives. I'm by no means an expert on Jordan Peterson and I'll admit upfront that much of what I know of his work comes from podcasts he's made appearances on that I listen to (plus a few lectures), but it seems like at least one big aspect of his message is emphasizing the need to grow up, and accept some responsibility in your life.

And you know what? I don't see that as a bad message. There really are some people who really do need to hear that, and I can imagine that at least a portion of the people who's he's made an impact on, he probably helped facilitate the jump from Spiral Dynamics stage Red to Blue.

Edited August 28, 2020 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, DocWatts said:

he probably helped facilitate the jump from Spiral Dynamics stage Red to Blue.

That's actually a very popular tactic of fundamentalist Christians. They specifically prey on troubled and wounded people at around stage Red because they are ripe for Christian indoctrination.

The devil preys on the weak by offering them cookies. The devil never presents himself as some evil monster. He lures you in with nuggets of truth and wisdom which he then twists to twist your mind. The devil's whole MO is to make truth and falsehood so conflated as to be indistinguishable. The devil never peddles pure falsehood as that would be artless and far less effective than lacing truth with poison.

[Lyubov]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's actually a very popular tactic of fundamentalist Christians. They specifically prey on troubled and wounded people at around stage Red because they are ripe for Christian indoctrination.

The devil preys on the weak by offering them cookies. The devil never presents himself as some evil monster. He lures you in with nuggets of truth and wisdom which he then twists to twist your mind. The devil's whole MO is to make truth and falsehood so conflated as to be indistinguishable. The devil never peddles pure falsehood as that would be artless and far less effective than lacing truth with poison.

wow, great way to word this 

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That's actually a very popular tactic of fundamentalist Christians. They specifically prey on troubled and wounded people at around stage Red because they are ripe for Christian indoctrination.

The devil preys on the weak by offering them cookies. The devil never presents himself as some evil monster. He lures you in with nuggets of truth and wisdom which he then twists to twist your mind. The devil's whole MO is to make truth and falsehood so conflated as to be indistinguishable. The devil never peddles pure falsehood as that would be artless and far less effective than lacing truth with poison.

Fair point, and of course Blue comes with its own train of baggage, but for the individual in question, even an unhealthy version of Blue can curtail alot of the self destructive qualities of Red which can land someone in prison or in an early grave. Maybe I'm off base here, but I'd imagine the individual in question has a better chance of someday leaving an organized religion they've gotten indoctrinated into, than they would at getting their lives back together after getting roped into the revolving door prison system in the United States.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who's highly sensitive to the harms of stage Blue fundamentalism, but looking at this from a harm reduction standpoint for the hypothetical individual in this situation, there's no question that they're going to be better off in Blue than they were in Red.

Edited August 29, 2020 by DocWatts
grammar

[DocWatts]

Also this is just my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt, but in my own life I've seen many more examples of healthy and functional people at Blue, and very few examples of someone in stage Red who has their shit together and seems happy with their life.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, louhad said:

@Leo Gura

I work with a stage blue christian organization in the south side of chicago... I think some level of blue indoctrination actually can be beneficial in helping bring order red communities move up in consciousness. From an absolute perspective, fundamentalist christians are of course the devil... that said, fundamental religion and order is the logical answer to stage red impulsiveness and egocentricity. 

Yes, but it also matters how it is done. There are healthy and unhealthy ways to go Blue.

[DocWatts]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, but it also matters how it is done. There are healthy and unhealthy ways to go Blue.

I guess a question I would have is are there actual healthy versions of Red in an industrialized democracy like the United States, that would perhaps be superior in some ways to Blue fundamentalism? One interesting example was one brought up by Tamler Sommers (of the Very Bad Wizards podcast), who makes a somewhat convincing argument that contained Honor systems seen in Sports are a healthy and functional version of Red (he doesn't frame his argument in terms of Spiral Dynamics, but the parallels are pretty clear).

Edited August 29, 2020 by DocWatts
Clarity

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, DocWatts said:

I guess a question I would have is are there actual healthy versions of Red in an industrialized democracy like the United States, that would perhaps be superior in some ways to Blue fundamentalism?

Probably not.

But Blue doesn't have to be fundamentalist. The solution is healthy Blue.

[Gidiot]

I think my friends family growing up was healthy blue, yes they tried to indoctrinate me into fundamentalism and Christianity but in a very healthy way, not saying I was evil and I needed to repent but by showing an example of leading a good life, they were very friendly and respectful and good members of the community, helped my family a lot, but were very judgmental on some issues. I think the healthiest version of blue in America are the religious and conservatives who can respect your beliefs but also respect their own. They don’t have a need to convert or moralize against you, they just disagree, I don’t talk to this family now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are solid orange now, this was of course when George bush was president so they felt extra blue

Edited August 29, 2020 by Gidiot